Effects of feeding too much on tank water quality

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Hey Barrett, from the sticky on probiotics.





Not picking on Hikari, the overall science behind all of this is still an unknown for the vast majority of tropical species of fish.

Yep have read (most) of that very informative sticky Neil, in fact if anything that's what mostly influenced me to not use foods with probiotics exclusively, given that Hikari is about the best I can get easily here, and also what you note that study concluded about long-term usage and lesser benefit.
 
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I have a few fish that like the Hikari Blood Parrot + too, but don't tell anyone, I'll lose my online rep. lol
 
Yes, cellular respiration is the main source of Urea from Ammonia/Amino acids that a fishes body produces.

Fish produce urea as a form of ammonia detoxification method.

Ammonia will all know is highly toxic to fish.

Urea on another hand is a non -toxic organic solid that is highly soluble in water. It is a form of liquid waste that needs to go through further bacterial decomposition before turning back into ammonia

The ratio of ammonia excretion vs urea is still not well understood apparently but latest science points it is done mainly via Rh glycoprotein transporters in the fish's gills. Different species of fish produce different ratios of ammonia vs urea.

For example, fresh water rays are considered mainly ammonotelic, producing 90% of what they excrete in the form of ammonia, hence the need for more robust filtration.

Urea is produced by fish as a survival mechanism. Some scientist propose the theory that fish inhabiting waters with high buffering capacity excrete nitrogenous waste mostly in the form of urea to protect themselves of the high toxicity of ammonia in such waters. Some fish that inhibit polluted waters excrete acidic substances as means of dealing with ammonia toxicity.

Also, it is interesting to note that according to science starving fish are more sensitive to external ammonia than fed fish. It is thought this is because of increased glutamine production after a fish has eaten, which is another form of ammonia detoxification.
 
My friends GG was mostly raised on algae wafers (on the surface), with the carnivorous species fed below, on food designed more for carnivores/omnivores. This mix seemed to work well, with none of the various species consuming excessive calories, and becoming obese.

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That's a beauty of a gg!! Would you say feeding a gg shrimp and scallops bad idea? Mine seems to love it... I was doing pellets one day and shrimp scallops the next back to back and all the fish in that tank love it and are growing well and the tank water quality is on point... just not sure if that's appropriate or not
 
Personally I would go easy on the seafood, especially if it is past the juvenile stage. Not a bad idea, just don't over do it. Their diet in the wild is more herbivorous based, at least from what I have read.
 
I'm maybe be off here but gg is mostly herby which usually have long intestinal tracts. Feeding high protein long term usually ends badly. It might like dried seaweed though.

Tbh honest I'm not sure of the consequences of feeding fw fish sw diet or vice versa.
 
Unless in a freeze dried state, shrimp and scallops primarily consist of water, (70-80%) so overall are actually quite low in protein, compared to most dry foods. Still, as previously stated my friends was mostly raised on algae based food (NLS), which I would highly recommend to anyone feeding a fish that is primarlily herbivorous, as well as occasionly feeding to even carnivorous species.

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Regarding water content, just a couple of examples. For most fish foods, the guaranteed analysis between the frozen version, and the freeze dried version, of a single unit (in the first example a single mysis) will be identical, the only real difference is that one will have 98% of its moisture removed.

When you dehydrate or freeze dry a food, it will shrink in size, but the protein/fat content remains the same. The only thing that changes is the amount of moisture, so one needs to be careful so as not to overfeed a freeze dried product (because it appears much smaller) than the same food in its original or frozen state.

So ounce for ounce a fish will glean far more protein out of a dry food, than they would the same amount (per ounce) of a frozen product, due the majority of the weight from a frozen food being from the high moisture content. The same applies to most pellets as most dry food products have approx. 10% moisture content (or less).

Water is a non nutrient, so while it may help increase palatability, and possibly aid in digestion, it will also make a fish reach satiation much quicker then if fed dry food. It's like drinking a couple of glasses of water, before you sit down for your platter of surf & turf. You won't be nearly as hungry. Probably a good thing for those that overfeed by large amounts, but not such a good thing for those that tend to under feed.

The following Nutritional analysis provided by Piscine Energetics (PE Mysis)

Frozen Mysis

Protein 10.46
Crude Fat 3.29
Moisture 82.27
Ash 1.65
Carbohydrates (by subtraction) 2.3


Guaranteed Analysis from dry weight (freeze dried)

Min Crude Protein 69.5%
Min Crude Fat 8.35%
Max Crude Fiber 2.75%
Max Ash 5.5%




Another example.

A typical analysis of freeze dried bloodworms.

Guaranteed Analysis
Min. Crude Protein...55%
Min. Crude Fat.....3%
Max. Crude Fiber.....5%
Max. Moisture..... 5%



A typical analysis of frozen bloodworms. (from the same manufacturer as above)

Guaranteed Analysis
Min. Crude Protein..........6.3%
Min. Crude Fat............... 0.8%
Max. Crude Fiber........... 0.3%
Max. Moisture.......91.2%



Approximate analysis of earthworms was completed by Dr. Carl Cater in the Oilseed Products Laboratory at Texas A&M. He reported that on the samples tested moisture (volatile) averaged 80.44%. A further analysis of freeze-dried earthworms indicated the following components: oil 6.8-7.1%, nitrogen 10.6 - 11.0%, protein 66.2 - 68.6% and ash 9.3 - 9.7%. This would indicate that on whole, live earthworms are less than 14% protein. Therefore its use as food or a feed supplement would probably be limited.


This is something that I attempted to explain when Repashy first hit the market several years ago. Some people got it, and some I reckon aren't so good at math.


To which the owner, Allen Repashy, never did answer the following question;

Can you please provide the members here with a nutritional analysis based on the finished product designed for carnivores, as in once the dry powder has been reconstituted with tap water? Thanks.

……. because if he had, it would have shown his finished formula, that was 75% water (give or take), containing but a small fraction of the nutrient levels shown on his packages, which he had listed on a dry matter basis.
 
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