Electric Blue Jack Dempsey Breeding

[Mekong]

Is a EBJD a cross between the african electric blue cichlid and a central american jack dempsey cichlid?
or
A selective breeding thing?

I was told both at different times.

The reason I ask is:

So in the LFS I saw a huge batch of 1cm fish listed as electric blue jack dempseys. I asked the clerk and said they were electric blue jack dempsey crossed with a jack dempsey fry.

So having room in my 90g I bought 11 of them. I know the owner and he agreed to buy the ones I dont want when they grow out to 2-3" Right now the biggest is about 1" and the smallest about 3/5", growing fast and healthy. The plan is to have a breeding pair. I want to select the best looking one of the batch and then find a mate for him or her.

I was wondering what should I get? African electric blue or a electric blue jack dempseys? I would like to rise some fry http://www.**************.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif

 

[andres]

No I believe an electric blue jack dempsey is a cross between a blue gene jack dempsey and an electric blue jack dempsey. It takes multiple generations to breed an EBJD. I have also read they occur naturally.

I may be wrong, but this is what I have seen on the forums.

 

[fishnoob]

I have no idea but in the latest tropical fish hobbyist magazine theres a article on breeding ebjd's. And the last paragraph says "Despite prevalent thought that the blues might be hybrids, it seems clear now that they are not. We are preparing an article on the recent controversies and DNA studies of the blue Jack Dempsey to appear in a future issue of TFH. Stay tuned!". This is from the november 2008 issue.

 

[terminalMTS]

ebjds are natural but, they are too weak to be found in the wild. the ebjd breeding goes like this: male ebjd to female jd, then you get blue gene fry. then you breed the male ebjd to a blue gene femele and you will end up with half ebjd and half blue gene jd. from what i have found ebjd x ebjd doesn't create viable fry. i did find one story of someone breeding two ebjds and getting fry, but i couldn't find anything on if they lived or not. the other thing that i found was that when you get your ebjd and blue gene fry you have to separate them or the ebjds will be out competed for food. they are weaker than regular jds that is why you need a male ebjd and a female jd because a male jd would kill a female ebjd. i have researched them alot because i saw the price tag and thought about breeding them. they are VERY sensitive to intestinal parasites when they are young. i hope this helps. mine died from intestinal parasites. if they stop eating, that is the first sign. good luck.

 

[aglarond]

EBJDs carry a gene that makes them blue. They are not a cross or hybrid with any Africans. This was scientifically proven, some guy went so far as to do some DNA sequencing.

Getting fry from two EBJDs of the same family won't ever happen (your situation). They have been linebred so much for that blue gene that they are all inbred to hell. As it is, 90% of the little fishies that you bought are probably going to die due to poor health and weak immune systems; only when they are past the 2" mark will they have an excellent chance of surviving.

There are two ways to successfully breed them:

The first way, the irresponsible way, involves crossing an EBJD to a normal JD then crossing the fry from that (blue gene JDs - BGJDs - carriers of the recessive blue gene) to another EBJD. The fry from the second cross have enough non-inbred wt JD blood to survive (for no less than one generation).

The second way, the responsible way, is more difficult. You have to get two unrelated EBJD specimens as well as two unrelated JD specimens. Cross one of the EBJDs with one of the JDs and cross the other EBJD with the other JD. You will get BGJD fry from each pairing. Then you have to cross a BGJD from one pairing with a BGJD from another pairing. The resulting fry will be 25% EBJDs, 25% wt JDs, and 50% BGJDs.

The first way is irresponsible because, if you look at the contributions of all the fish into the genes of the final offspring, you have 25% wt JD blood and 75% inbred EBJD blood. Even if the second EBJD is from a different family than the first one you have 25% wt JD blood, 25% EBJD1 blood, and 50% EBJD2 blood. This isn't good at all and any EBJD from this type of pairing probably won't be able to interbreed.

The second way is more resonsible because if you break it down the final offspring will have 25% JD1, 25% JD2, 25% EBJD1, and 25% EBJD2 blood. About as non deep woods Georgia as you can get. These fish will be able to breed amongst themselves and with other inbred EBJDs because of how they were raised.

Bottom line - 90% of your fish will probably die because people inbreed them irresponsibly. You will never get fry easily and if you do end up trying do it the responsible way. Also, buy a UV sterilizer for their tank, they're going to need it.

 

[beantickler]

EBJDs carry a gene that makes them blue. They are not a cross or hybrid with any Africans. This was scientifically proven, some guy went so far as to do some DNA sequencing.

Getting fry from two EBJDs of the same family won't ever happen (your situation). They have been linebred so much for that blue gene that they are all inbred to hell. As it is, 90% of the little fishies that you bought are probably going to die due to poor health and weak immune systems; only when they are past the 2" mark will they have an excellent chance of surviving.

There are two ways to successfully breed them:

The first way, the irresponsible way, involves crossing an EBJD to a normal JD then crossing the fry from that (blue gene JDs - BGJDs - carriers of the recessive blue gene) to another EBJD. The fry from the second cross have enough non-inbred wt JD blood to survive (for no less than one generation).

The second way, the responsible way, is more difficult. You have to get two unrelated EBJD specimens as well as two unrelated JD specimens. Cross one of the EBJDs with one of the JDs and cross the other EBJD with the other JD. You will get BGJD fry from each pairing. Then you have to cross a BGJD from one pairing with a BGJD from another pairing. The resulting fry will be 25% EBJDs, 25% wt JDs, and 50% BGJDs.

The first way is irresponsible because, if you look at the contributions of all the fish into the genes of the final offspring, you have 25% wt JD blood and 75% inbred EBJD blood. Even if the second EBJD is from a different family than the first one you have 25% wt JD blood, 25% EBJD1 blood, and 50% EBJD2 blood. This isn't good at all and any EBJD from this type of pairing probably won't be able to interbreed.

The second way is more resonsible because if you break it down the final offspring will have 25% JD1, 25% JD2, 25% EBJD1, and 25% EBJD2 blood. About as non deep woods Georgia as you can get. These fish will be able to breed amongst themselves and with other inbred EBJDs because of how they were raised.

Bottom line - 90% of your fish will probably die because people inbreed them irresponsibly. You will never get fry easily and if you do end up trying do it the responsible way. Also, buy a UV sterilizer for their tank, they're going to need it.

Good info and good post!

 

[Toby_H]

African Cichlids cannot breed with SA/CA Cichlids… they’re evolution is simply too far apart. So it’s definitely not an African/CA hybrid…

The DNA sequencing proves that the maternal (Mother’s) side of Blue Dempseys are 100% Dempsey but proves nothing about the paternal (Father’s) side. But the sequencing went back many more generations than Blue Dempsey have been spawned in captivity, so IF there is any hybridization it took place in the wild many generations before humans got their hands on Blue Dempseys… which doesn’t make sense for a lot of reasons…

So we cannot say we have proven they are not hybrids… but we can say we have scientifically analyzed them and see no reason to suspect they may be hybrids…

To date, no one has ever seen/captured a Blue Dempsey in the wild. But this does not mean they aren’t out there. But what is much more likely to be the situation, the Blue Dempseys die in the wild, not because they are weak, but because they stand out like a sore thumb. Dempseys, fish, animals… are colored the way they are for two primary reasons, A) camouflage, B) impressing the opposite sex. But if a young fish can’t camo itself, it’ll never grow up to impress a mate. Therefore these bright blue little fish don’t ever get a chance to grow up.

What very well could take place though is the Blue coloration is kept alive in the wild via “Blue Gene” Dempseys. These are the regular looking Dempseys that have a recessive gene for the Blue coloration. When two Blue Genes spawn together, 50% of their babies are again Blue Genes. Following this approach the Blue coloration could be kept alive for billions of years without a Blue Dempsey ever spawning.

Back to spawning in the aquarium hobby…

I have personally spawned Blue x Blue using 3 different pairs (3 different males & 3 different females). In every pair the eggs hatched like normal, the wigglers developed into free swimmers like normal… but the free swimmers didn’t develop properly and all died within 3 weeks of being frees swimming. I know of a couple others who had the exact same experience and have only talked to one person who claims they were able to keep some alive for a few months… every one he kept alive was deformed. So for the time being we have to accept Blue x Blue doesn’t work.

This could be because either the Blue gene is a lethal gene… or the current stock of Blue Dempseys are so inbred that without the “fresh Dempsey blood” they cannot survive… or some twisted combination of the two. I don’t really know which it is… and neither does anyone else… and speculation gets us no where…

I do not agree that spawning a Blue Dempsey with an unrelated Blue Gene Dempsey is “irresponsible” but I can say that I have experience that the Blue offspring of BGxBG pairs seem stronger than the Blue offspring of BluexBG pairs… I am currently breeding Blue Dempsey using both approaches…

BluexBG pairs produce (approx) 50% Blue offspring… BGxBG pairs produce (approx) 25% Blue offspring… despite the scientific support… I find a wide variance in actual numbers of Blues produced from pair to pair.

With my last few broods, I’ve been raising my Blue offspring along with the non-Blue offspring for the first 6 weeks. My Blue Dempseys are not following the speculation that they will not survive. I even had one brood where it seemed the strongest Blues were killing off the non Blues.

If you, or others, are considering breeding with profit in mind… I highly suggest you think things all the way through. Since BGxBG pairs only produce 25% Blue Dempseys… you will have 25% sellable stock. So if you breed a fish that is worth 25% as much as a Blue Dempsey… you will break even in income per brood… add to that the fact that the mortality rate of Blue Dempseys is far higher than most others, your likely to loose money.

I’m 2.5 years into breeding Blue Dempseys and haven’t made squat from them yet… and although I am now producing healthy, high quality Blues, I’m producing very small quantities in comparison to what I could produce of another species with the same amount of tank space. It is definitely my passion for this morph that is keeping me going… not any hope for profit…

But if, after reading all my ramblings, you decide to breed Blue Dempseys… Then my foremost suggestion is to AVOID INBREEDING. I am well aware that inbreeding is a common practice in the fish hobby, and I’m not arguing that it shouldn’t be. My argument is that Blue Dempseys have been inbreed way too much over the last dozen years or so. Inbreeding alone may not be bad… but excessive inbreeding is definitely bad. Blue Dempseys have been excessively inbred and we now need to outcross our breeding programs to overcome the excessive inbreeding…

I wish you all the best of luck at breeding strong healthy Blue Dempseys… you’ll need it…

 

[Ctrl_Alt_Dlt]

How much were they for you to purchase 11 of them? They are usually $25+ each.

 

[cl0wn knife]

gl

 

[aglarond]

I do not agree that spawning a Blue Dempsey with an unrelated Blue Gene Dempsey is “irresponsible” but I can say that I have experience that the Blue offspring of BGxBG pairs seem stronger than the Blue offspring of BluexBG pairs… I am currently breeding Blue Dempsey using both approaches…

In an ideal world people should have started out by crossing BGJDs with wt JDs for a number of generations and selecting for the 25% BGJDs that arise. Even though they carry the blue gene recessively they are distinguishable from wt JDs. After a couple of generations of crossing BGJDs back to wt JDs any EBJDs resulting from two paired BGJDs would surely be able to inbreed for many generations and we wouldn't be having this problem.

PS - sell me some BGJDs? lol