Sorry but in every source that I read sb gene is recessive. The reason bp mixes with fh or midevils that those fishes have short body ancestors in their background, any pure blood mixed with a sb fish ends up with %100 normal fish which carries sb gene as a recessive trait I read it and saw it in my own hybrids. Also there is blog which the owner makes cross breeding experiments , you cabn read the related topics about sb gene; http://gregthecrazyfishguy.wordpress.com/ .
Escondido X sb Green Texas update
- Thread starter izzy_here
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Regardless, I know what my fish spawned, 30%-40% were short like the mother, 10%-20% were not as short as the mother but still shorter than the father. The remainder were like the father. The father came from an extremely reputable source here in the US, I know for fact he was a pure (normal) wild form.
It is genetically impossible for a recessive gene to show in 50% of the offspring from a recessive gene mating to a normal.
A recessive gene never shows in the first generation.
All you get in the first generation of recessive X normal is 50% that carry (but not show) the recessive gene. A domninant gene X normal will produce 50% dominant gene and 50% that look normal but carry the dominant gene.
It is genetically impossible for a recessive gene to show in 50% of the offspring from a recessive gene mating to a normal.
A recessive gene never shows in the first generation.
All you get in the first generation of recessive X normal is 50% that carry (but not show) the recessive gene. A domninant gene X normal will produce 50% dominant gene and 50% that look normal but carry the dominant gene.
I'm quite aware of the laws of mendelism, and I know about Jeff Rapps. İf your fish was not from Rapps, the first thing I would say would be one of the parents of your male fish is definitely a short body but since your male carpintis is %99 pure blood I'm comfused. Because I'm sure short body gene is recessive.
Perhaps the short body gene that carpintis species carries has a more dominant effect over the sb gene that other cichlids carry. All blood parrots have many deformaties on their head part, nearly all sb convicts have spinal deformaties, about half of the sb fh that I saw have minor deformaties but the short body texas/carpintis that I own and have seen so far are nearly flawless short bodies so the gene that they carry may be stronger than the standart short body gene. This is the only explanation I can make because I had many spawns from a few different species of cichlids as sbXnormal but they never ended with sb fry unless normal parent was a sb gene carrier. At the moment I have some sb carpintis and sb red texas I'll breed them with normal bodied fish just to see if it'll end as your example.
Perhaps the short body gene that carpintis species carries has a more dominant effect over the sb gene that other cichlids carry. All blood parrots have many deformaties on their head part, nearly all sb convicts have spinal deformaties, about half of the sb fh that I saw have minor deformaties but the short body texas/carpintis that I own and have seen so far are nearly flawless short bodies so the gene that they carry may be stronger than the standart short body gene. This is the only explanation I can make because I had many spawns from a few different species of cichlids as sbXnormal but they never ended with sb fry unless normal parent was a sb gene carrier. At the moment I have some sb carpintis and sb red texas I'll breed them with normal bodied fish just to see if it'll end as your example.
Perhaps the short body gene that carpintis species carries has a more dominant effect over the sb gene that other cichlids carry.
How would that explain the case of my fish? The male did not carry any sb genes, we both can agree on the reputation of the source of said male. We both can agree that only a dominant gene acts in the manner displayed by the sb fish I've bred. It is a puzzle.
I feel that I was wrong on many things in this thread...http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/f...n-s-when-choosing-short-body-fish.&highlight=
Yet right about many more, I do think it is a form of dwarfism, but I can no longer agree about the nature of the gene. I did a test breeding and it showed clear and obvious signs of being a dominant gene.
It is puzzling, I too thought it was a recessive, until my own experience, as well as a few friends with similar results using bp X convict. That was why I was so surprised to see you say you didn't get any sb fry from that pairing. I've seen a few such pairings result in sb fry.
One thing I can tell you with my own experience is that I separated all sb of the body type I liked at a very early age. I felt they were getting out competed for the food and getting picked on in general. I feel it is likely they may have all been killed off by the more normal fry if I hadn't.
Yet right about many more, I do think it is a form of dwarfism, but I can no longer agree about the nature of the gene. I did a test breeding and it showed clear and obvious signs of being a dominant gene.
It is puzzling, I too thought it was a recessive, until my own experience, as well as a few friends with similar results using bp X convict. That was why I was so surprised to see you say you didn't get any sb fry from that pairing. I've seen a few such pairings result in sb fry.
One thing I can tell you with my own experience is that I separated all sb of the body type I liked at a very early age. I felt they were getting out competed for the food and getting picked on in general. I feel it is likely they may have all been killed off by the more normal fry if I hadn't.
Please forgive my genetic's lesson kabaltah, it is only intended for those who aren't familiar as you are.
I did read the blog in your link, the author successfully proves that sb con's are not hybrids. A fact that will make many here on the forum very excited. Many have argued that all sb cons are hybrids, there are some who dispute this, his blog seems to prove they are not. It seems he did get several (I'd bet it was 50%) sb fry from a bp to midas mating. All the more puzzling why you did not.
The fry from this mating between the midas and bp leads me to again suspect that the sb gene (as known in fh and bp) can be present in both a homozygous and a heterozygous state.
In other words an sb fish with one copy (homozygous) of the sb gene when crossed to a normal will produce 50% normal that carry the sb gene and 50% sb, some of that 50% sb will be very short like the single copy sb parent. The remainder of the 50% sb will be of varying lengths some almost resembling the normal parent.
If these homozygous fry were crossed to each other you would get 100% heterozygous or "super" sb's
When a heterozygous (double copy) sb fish is crossed to a normal you get what I got, 50% normal carryng the sb gene and 50% Heterozygous or "super" sb of varying length's, a fairly large percentage were very extremely short like the mother. I've got a feeling that any of my sb fry, no matter what the length, would produce 50% sb fry when bred to a normal.
This is all just a theory though.
p.s. one thing to be considered when breeding for the sb gene (as it is known in fh and bp) is that what you start with is what you'll end up with. The laws of genetics state that the fry will range in looks between the mother and the father. None of the fry will be shorter than the shortest parent.
I did read the blog in your link, the author successfully proves that sb con's are not hybrids. A fact that will make many here on the forum very excited. Many have argued that all sb cons are hybrids, there are some who dispute this, his blog seems to prove they are not. It seems he did get several (I'd bet it was 50%) sb fry from a bp to midas mating. All the more puzzling why you did not.
The fry from this mating between the midas and bp leads me to again suspect that the sb gene (as known in fh and bp) can be present in both a homozygous and a heterozygous state.
In other words an sb fish with one copy (homozygous) of the sb gene when crossed to a normal will produce 50% normal that carry the sb gene and 50% sb, some of that 50% sb will be very short like the single copy sb parent. The remainder of the 50% sb will be of varying lengths some almost resembling the normal parent.
If these homozygous fry were crossed to each other you would get 100% heterozygous or "super" sb's
When a heterozygous (double copy) sb fish is crossed to a normal you get what I got, 50% normal carryng the sb gene and 50% Heterozygous or "super" sb of varying length's, a fairly large percentage were very extremely short like the mother. I've got a feeling that any of my sb fry, no matter what the length, would produce 50% sb fry when bred to a normal.
This is all just a theory though.
p.s. one thing to be considered when breeding for the sb gene (as it is known in fh and bp) is that what you start with is what you'll end up with. The laws of genetics state that the fry will range in looks between the mother and the father. None of the fry will be shorter than the shortest parent.
