Experience & Research

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loconorc;1297864; said:
Oxymoron? How so? Maybe our common sense was lost. Somewhere along the line mankind just dumbed down...

Its an oxymoron in the sense that its not as "common" as the phrase implies.

And the motorcycle analogy... MOTORCYCLES ARENT LIVING ANIMALS. For buying a pet, knowledge and proper application of it is life or death for an animal. For motorcycles, if you crash it, thats YOUR problem, not that of a living, breathing animal who didnt ask to be kept in a glass box its entire life.

Of course, motorcycles aren't living things....but you're missing the point. According to some people, you don't know anything about [insert said herp] unless you've kept one for yourself for years. But what if you want one, but have never owned one before? By your logic (which is essentially correct), you must know enough about the animal before embarking on owning one, but by their logic, you can't gain that knowledge without owning one. You're trapped in a circle. That's my point here; it is definitely possible to learn through others (whether its talking to them on a forum or reading a book they read). You don't HAVE to personally own the animal to know anything about it. Of course, I understand that one also has to weigh in the "experience level" of those he's getting advice from, too.

Since you don't get the motorcycle thing, I'll try it with Jackson's chameleons: this is another herp I've never owned. I've taken care of dozens of them at petstores over the years, I've read a lot about them, I've talked with people who do keep them, I know what they eat, I know what temps they do best at, I know how UVB effects them, etc etc.....but I've never owned one myself. Person A says that despite all of the above, I don't know anything about Jacksons chams and that any knowledge gained can only be done if I own one myself and take care of it in my own house.

Do you agree with that? Should I just go out and buy one? Do you think based on what I just told you, I'm "experienced" enough to own a Jacksons chameleon? If not, how do I get the necessary knowledge to take care of a Jacksons chameleon if all that other stuff I mentioned isn't adequate?
 
So youre saying you have to have the experience of owning an animal BEFORE you own it. Sorry, THATS what I dont get. You dont have to be Steve Irwin to own a crocodile. You dont have to be Daniel Bennet to own a monitor. You dont have to be Jane Goodall to own a primate. (Although the world would certianly be a better place...)

You just have to know your basics and get it right. When healthy, animals are indestructible as far as hardiness. If you get that down from the get-go, you can improve on it and expand your interest to more challenging species.

Now Im not sure of this: Is that what you are trying to say? Or is this what youre disagreeing with?
 
loconorc;1297928; said:
So youre saying you have to have the experience of owning an animal BEFORE you own it. Sorry, THATS what I dont get. You dont have to be Steve Irwin to own a crocodile. You dont have to be Daniel Bennet to own a monitor. You dont have to be Jane Goodall to own a primate. (Although the world would certianly be a better place...)

Now Im not sure of this: Is that what you are trying to say? Or is this what youre disagreeing with?

No, I do NOT think you have to have the experience of owning it to know anything about it. This is the mentality I'm disagreeing with. I'm with you in that knowing the basics and doing some homework is enough to get you started.

So...would I write a caresheet on Jacksons chameleons or Uromastyx? Absolutely not; I don't feel comfortable doing so. Now if someone asked me what they ate or what kind of cage they need, I'd give them my opinion based on what I know. If they asked me if they needed UV lighting, I'd tell them yes.
 
OK... it seems we have the same ideas then.
 
I seem to think the sniff sniff has hit the fan. For some reason ophimucus seems to think that I have something against books, if I remember correctly in another thread ophi started another conversation similar to this. And I seem to remember me stating that books are a good base, but is not something that should be take to as concrete and everlasting. With animal things change and one day is not the same as another. Things happen today that dont happen tomm, when that happens are you going to listen to the animal your crisp copy of reptiles magazine with pages stuck together from all the reading youve done rather than spending that time with the animals who know the answers to the questions.

Now the whole debate of experience vs research boy oh boy ...... research is something that is done to gain more knowledge of something experiecence is something that is everchanging. If you think you have experience riding a motorcycle wait till some kid blows by you in a ninja doing tricks youve never done before, how does it make you look when all you can do is pop a wheelie. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha .... samething here. Wait till someone keeps breeds something in particular on regular basis and makes you keeping it alive seem second grade.

The point is you need to get up close and personal, whether its riding a bike or keeping a reptile thats where the experience and knowledge comes because your testing the aniamls limitations as with the bikes, by fine tunning and changing things that the animal or bike is telling you isnt working. If your bike is making a strange noise are you gonna investigate? If your animals is telling you something are you going to investigate it? Youve done all these mods and the manual and or caresheet are just gonna tell you the basics, is it going to tell you the full story?
 
  1. my freinds have been buying and restoring old clasic motorbikes for years to sell,they know how each one handles,the power off the line or distance,what goes out for repair and what they are worth.they can tell within seconds of listening what needs adjusting and what its worth.Now,would i go to my other friend who hase had a harely for 10 years or them if i wanted bike advise.them!the harely guy would go to them for repair advice so in my opinion i would too go to them because they are top of the latter now.they have done it all,i would still ask him stuff but they will be more solid.
  2. ive kept and bread beardeds for years and have had amazing experiences with it that keepers all over that i know have never heard of,the care sheets wont tell you they can dig under heavy rocks and get crushed to death,the babies will eat eachothers arms off or they will eat fake plants and not always be able to get them out without asisting,yuk,but true.tricks to get them to drink from bowls,and what its like to keep and feed 300 baby beardies a crap load of escaping crickets.
  3. i read like a madman and have stacks upon stacks of herp and fish material from the age of 10 to now at 32.i know alot about the general care of dang near everything but i would rather someone ask someone with more hands on if they were to plan on buying something like a king snake or water turtle wich ive never had.I try to give good hands on advice but if i cant,i give the basics and recomend more from a good source if possible.
  4. just a bit of my thoughts.Good luck guys,dont let this get ugly.
  5. p.s.im getting ready to adopt a cali desert tort and ive gottin alot of info from ppl who had them for 10 years or so.come to find out 1 or 2 have died for no aperent reason.then i talk to ppl that had them for 40 years and breeders who say the real deal.the more hands on the better i say.torts can die a long slow death due to lack of many elements.Im doing some hard research from long term keepers.
  6. you all know some of us just get this stuff and some dont,thats the sad fact,and some wont listen.good luck guys.:)
 
varanio;1298574; said:
ophimucus...
Real professional...this now only confirms your maturity level. Have I ever called you a name?

Whatever...its rolling off the back now...

I understand 110% that experience is much more valuable than reading a book. I just don't appreciate someone (a mod, no less who is supposed to be an example to everyone on this forum) questions my intelligence and tells me I don't know jack-squat just because I haven't bred any of my pets. Guess what? What if I really don't want to breed my herps?

Anyway, this whole thing has actually been a wake-up call to me. Very ironic, actually. Jessica always accuses of me of being too harsh when administering advice to others, which I always defend myself by saying sugar-coating it doesn't help. Perhaps she's right. I honestly feel like I'm getting a dose of my own medicine here from you. I'm through trying to prove myself to some snob a whole ocean away. I mean, do I really care that much? I find the answer is no. You may know a little more about some herps than I do, Varanios, but you know what? If you gonna act like a horse's rear end all the time, good advice or not, I'm not gonna learn anything from you. Why would I willing submit myself to such bad teaching skills? To paraphrase someone else regarding this same issue, I like steak, but I like to eat it, not get slapped by it.

BTW, here's some parting food for thought on the whole "written word" thing....you may have all that knowledge bursting at the seams inside that noggin of yours (which is great, don't get me wrong)...but what if you get hit by a bus tomorrow? It would be nice to have written a book to have all that info in writing for fellow herpers to peruse for decades to come, or at least a nice article or scientific journal, wouldn't it? If not, then give it a couple months, and the last post you ever would've made on this site will become a distant memory. Of course there's the off-chance that some post-whore noob troll may dig it up just to rack up his post count...

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Completely random...I did just realize that your username is "Varanio' with no "S"; however, I have been calling you Varanios. Apparently, I pay too much attention to your posts and not your display. Anyway, I do apologize if you've taken offense to this. I wasn't doing it on purpose; I suppose I was just thinking of the genus Varanus and my mind is subconsciously wanting that "S" to be there...
 
oh man,don't get banned,i like dr house.we are all entitled to our opinions.its how we type them that matters.always remember you might be talking to a person with no experience in anything in life so don't let ppl piss you off to bad.house and varanio and myself can get tempers but ive learned now to shut it off.the name calling and attacks on intelligence gets us no place and looks dumb as hell,trust me ive done it with kids half my age,you look back and think what the hell did i get so erked for.
 
dont get me wrong,we know what gets us mad but just dont let it eat you up too bad.healthy debating is good but not if you arent trying to come to a conclusion together,its just a fight thats going to get old and locked out.
 
My research is limited to all of your advice. Almost all of the advice I have gotten has been good. I just wish all of you wouldn't fight so much. :)
 
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