Explain the difference between G. altifrons, and G. surinamensis

[Peanut_Power]

I am seriously curious about this. What are the differences between the two species, how can you tell them apart? If you can provide pictures that would be phenomenal.

I currently have G. surinamensis, or at least I believe I do. I have the ability to get both 'locally', and was thinking about it, but was worried about crossbreeding or not even being able to tell them apart. The altifrons have a higher price, I know that for sure.

 

[honda237]

I am seriously curious about this. What are the differences between the two species, how can you tell them apart? If you can provide pictures that would be phenomenal.

I currently have G. surinamensis, or at least I believe I do. I have the ability to get both 'locally', and was thinking about it, but was worried about crossbreeding or not even being able to tell them apart. The altifrons have a higher price, I know that for sure.

i would also like to know, i've never actually seen a true surinamensis.

 

[jag123]

Peanut - if anything would be higher priced, I would think it would be surinamensis - if in fact that's what it is. I think most on here would agree that it has been some time if ever that surinamensis has been imported.

What most likely is available is altifrons or abalios or some variant of either one. You can get a good idea about the differences between these two from some excellent pics on TUIC vendor page, as you probably know.

I believe the major difference between abalios and altifrons is the caudal fin patterning.

Abalios has a mixture of spotting and striping, whereas altifrons has only spotting.

This of course, cannot be determined until the fish are a little older - lets say 3-4"?

 

[Dan F]

I'm certainly no expert, but this is straight from Weidner's Eartheater book:

Characters of the species: The most important criterion for identifying G. surinamensis is not so much the body form and coloration, but the locality, as current wisdom is that only specimens form Surinam and French Guiana should be assigned to this species.
...
From the aquarist's viewpoint, characters which can be used to differentiate the species from other members of the genus include the absence of dark markings on the head... the always visible lateral spot encompassing several scales, which in adults and/or depending on mood may become pale but is still visible as a light spot... the irregular spotting of the central part of the caudal... plus the deep-bodied shape.

I hope this helps!

From what everyone seems to say the LFS is most likely mislabeling the "Surinamensis". I, too, have seen "Surinamensis" alongside higher priced "Altifrons", not sure what to think.

 

[japes]

I'll be brief, it's early morning (or late night) here. I'm not an expert either.

Suriname export laws mean that the true G. surinamensis is incredibly rare in the hobby - "Geophagus surinamensis" could almost be considered a slushpit wholesalers name for what I would classify as a true, typical Geophagus of unknown species. It varies throughout the world, but Geophagus surinamensis in Australia is generally a mislabled Geophagus brachybranchus, a somewhat similar species from Guyana. From my experience on this forum, you Americans tend to have G. abalios and G. altifrons variants as your 'Surinamensis'.

Easiest way to tell with altifrons is quite simple - most altifrons species have a very small (sometimes only a couple of scales - shrinks as they grow) lateral spot, or none at all. Honestly, without even knowing what your fish look like, I can tell you they're not surinamensis. From all accounts here I imagine they're either abalios or altifrons.

 

[Peanut_Power]

Dang. Thanks for the info guys. I'm pretty sure they are abalios from what you guys have described. I'll get some pictures shortly. Appreciate it.

 

[mynheers_a_pint]

i posted this a while ago but it's still kind of useful.

Surinamensis


More than likley Altifron or Altifron sub-species as Japes has said. The head shape is the key thing i use to differentiate the species; Altifron have a much steeper-inclinded face and taller body compared to the Dicrozoster/Surinamensis varients, not to mention the Pre-operculur mark;

Dicrozoster-



Altifron-



(very old pics of my guys)

HTH

True Surinamensis, whilst rare, sharre a body shape similar to the Dicrozoster but in all honesty, there are so many similar species, singling out a Surinamensis from a sea of Geophagus varients such as Pindare, Dicrozoster and even the Altifron varients would be difficult, even for an eggspurt.

 

[edburress]

It's not too difficult to know an alfifrons or abalios for sure. But knowing a surinamensis "for sure" would be very difficult. In brief...

altifrons: abdominal spot covers 4 scales or less, and often only 2-3. Spotted tail.

abalios: large caudal spot, tail highly variable between spots or striped and often a mixture of the two (especially as subadults or older juveniles). Typically they are thought of as stripe-tailed species, however the Holotype has a very finely spotted tail (which at least for me, is the some reason for confusion). The key character is that the first two lateral bands (on the forehead behind the gill plate) bisect and look as though they are paired (such as with G. sp. "Tapajós Orange Head").

G. surinamensis: much more similar to abalios than altifrons in my opinion, but the first two lateral bands do not bisect and the tail is finely spotted as in altifrons. The major issue here is that a fish could fit this profile and be G. cf. altifrons from central Brasil.... a place surinamensis is not found (as others have mentioned). In the US we do not see G. brachybranchus, and VERY rarely any species from Suriname. So this makes me think that the surinamese species we do get are those with a Guyana-Suriname distribution and our imports are from Guyana or Venezuela is some cases (ex. S. leucosticta, G. dicrozoster, Guianacara, etc.) and is why we don't see the others that have a suriname-French Guiana distribution (G. surinamensis, G. brokopondo, G. harreri, etc.).

Ed

 

[Al KW Tan]

Hey.. I am actually more confused than before going through this thread.
Please someone tell me what mine are. TQ!

 

[neutrino]

Photos look like altifrons to me, where did you get them and how were they labeled? Will be interesting to see how they turn out.

As mentioned, surinamensis is something of a catch-all, especially at many lfs it can mean any of several actual species. "Suriname types" is an expression that's often been used for any of a number of similar looking species of varying size and specific markings or color, including altifrons. Distinguishing characters might be spots or stripes on tail, black marks near the gills, size of black spot on the body, adult size of the fish, sometimes shape of their bars, markings in the eyes, etc. There are quite a few species of 'suriname type', some more distinctive than others. I'm not an expert on exactly if, when, or by whom true G. surinamensis have been exported-- or imported to the US-- but I have seen some, if not necessarily in the US, as agreed upon by some of the guys over at CRC.

Altifrons are as described above, small lateral spot, spotted caudal fin, fin extensions as adults, get big for a suriname type.