Festae- Quality VS Trash!!

[kamikaziechameleon]

I know what you guys are saying. I'm split, dogofwar has a very valid notion that a single bad pair might have put out allot of the bad stock in the hobby probably came from one breeder. Same time I think its possible the crossing of some of the different collection points might have caused some of these muddy traits. At the same time its also possible these "trash" festae aren't actually trash it could be a naturally occurring series of physical traits. For them to persist through good specimens it would have to be dominant traits. Else they'd be easily removed from a gene pool through breeding even inbreeding if they were indeed trash recessive mutations etc. The issue with Purchasing "F0" fish is how many people are in the supply chain. It would be too easy for someone to breed fish down their and call them wild caught. At that even when this has happened in other fish we haven't seen what is going on with festae.

 

[RD.]

Good points. IMHO it's quite obvious that at least one vendor has been selling tank bred siblings @ 1" as F0, at which size some of these physical traits may or may not be easily spotted.

That the genetically problematic fish at the heart of the genetic anomoly were wild, F1, F2 or F100 has little to do with it. They were deformed and should not have been bred for the aquarium.

I definitely concur with that.

 

[Gatorxxx420]

Personally, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Of the 2 I bought the 1 is a for sure female and she's going to be gorgeous (she's not an F1 that I am aware of) if she looks anything like her siblings and so far, she's looking as good or better. The other is an F1 male that is starting to show that sloped face mentioned and it was bought from a club auction here by someone fairly known in my area with WC parents. I tend to believe these deformities are normal and can randomly occur in any species (human and non human). But it does seem a lot of abnormal Festae are popping up as of late. I've seen them in stores and on here and other forums.

As to the why, I think a lot of it is money. People don't want to take the time to grow fish out enough to find out if there are any genetic mutations. They just look for a quick buck and nothing more. Just because a pair looks normal and is healthy doesn't mean they don't carry these genes and they could pass them along to offspring who do show them. It's hard to say what exactly has caused it in Festae or even EBJD. Could it be line breeding from an inexperienced breeder gone terribly wrong or did someone not cull their fry properly? I think the biggest thing that needs to be promoted out of this is, no matter WHAT species you keep... but if there is the slightest deformity, do NOT breed them and sell them. Also, do not just breed and sell any fish. Always grow them out some to ensure they're not deformed.

As for trash vs. quality, that is an obvious decision when keeping something people are going to be looking at. It doesn't matter the species, you can score beautiful fish from any source without breaking your wallet. If you know what to look for you can get a fish that looks just as good for 5 dollars as the store selling em for 10-15 dollars. Since a lot of the fish we buy are line bred for specific qualities, I don't think "blood lines" matter one bit.

 

[Jimmy16]

there should be a thread called "People. Quality vs. Trash!!"

 

[cacichlids]

The characteristics that you site for "quality" festaes are highly subjective based on what appeals to human aesthetic desires (and specifically yours) than what makes a festae likely to survive in a river somewhere.

This is not just a festae issue. When any cichlid spawns in nature (any fish in fact). Most of the fry will be lost. The one or 2 that survive, in theory, will be the fittest, the best, maybe most colorful.
When we breed our cichlids for volume, and do not cull most, when we give 100 or more fry to a fish store, we are asking for the trash we sometimes end up with. And will obviously get many of the less desirable traits don't show up until they 3" or more.

I agree.

First of all lemme say that my feelings aren't involved here because I'm in love with Umbee right now (thanks to you) and couldn't care less about Festae.

Now, you can't just call everyone else's fish "trash" because it doesn't fit your personal definition of "good looks". All this "Festae experts elite" crap that I've been hearing lately (and I'm not talking about you) about having the most exclusive stock in the world with perfect shiny white teeth, shape, profiles, colors and long flowing silky fins is kinda funny, because those characteristics are not really the norm in wild fish, which by their own definition are as high quality as you can get.

If you do have a strain of good looking fish (and I personally agree, they do look amazing, as do many other unrelated Festae I've seen) and are doing a great job at breeding the traits you consider "good", then just call it that, don't come and throw a bunch of subjective "facts" and fancy genetics on the table, and trash every other breeder just so you can dump a $400 price tag on it.

In the wild you can catch two Festae from the same spot that look nothing like each other, and this is especially true for adult cichlids which have to deal with a lot just to survive - they might have battle scars, small deformities, missing eyes, stunted and missing fins, broken gill plates and crooked mouths (all of which I have seen, as deformities and such do happen in wild fish; as well as a certain amount of natural variation within local populations) and they might still be able to breed - that's cause female Festae won't look for the traits we consider desirable, they will look for the strongest male that has survived and is worthy of breeding and protecting her fry… she could care less if it looks good on your Nikon D800. The fact that you can breed a Festae to a Jag successfully makes me wonder how many of the physical traits we so desire really matter for them when choosing a partner.

My point is, you can and will find fish that you consider good and bad quality both in the wild and in captive bred stock, regardless of how many generations down the line you get, so your assumption that "good looks" are directly related to how close to wild caught they are, and "anything past F3 is trash and should be culled," is not entirely right. The F1 Umbee you sold me vs the one Gage sold me would be the best example of this - even though both are F1 and both "supposedly" come from the same batch of wild caught Umbee, yours is infinitely better looking. Even your female looks better than his F1 male, which is already past 7" and not showing any improvement.

Of course, the demand for Festae got so high in the last two years that there was little quality control in what fish were being sold, people just wanted to make money. Inevitably some runts that would have been predated upon or killed by stronger siblings in the wild ended up as breeders and yes, in this case the "weaker" genes get passed down, but that happens all the time, for every species we breed. To avoid this, next time you breed Umbee you should let the first pair form within the group and let them kill the rest, all of them, this will ensure only the strongest two survived (probably the same percentage that would survive in the wild) and the weak genes did not, but I doubt that makes a lot of sense to you from an economical standpoint.

Anyway, Festae are now what Umbee were a few years ago, now that everyone has tried them the "Festae craze" will start dying off, prices will drop and only serious breeders will stick around, hopefully raising the quality of what is available.

 

[RD.]

I think that summed things up nicely.

 

[Freshwaterpredators]

Ok it looks as if a few people are confused at what i have said. this thread was made to bring awareness to what is going on with festae being sold with defomities. Not to have a pissing contest saying my fish are better than yours.

The characteristics that you site for "quality" festaes are highly subjective based on what appeals to human aesthetic desires (and specifically yours) than what makes a festae likely to survive in a river somewhere.

Having "High profile, solid bars, strong mouths, colors" are characteristics that are as likely than not selected AGAINST by Mother Nature than for (in the wild).

Line breeding (i.e. inbreeding to develop lines with desired characteristics...like the ones you identified) requires breeding related fish (or else it won't work).

Matt

And this comment is exactly what im talking about. Ok maybe the color and bars are a personal choice for anyone. but the strong mouths and high bodies do play a part in natural selection of survival of the fittest. and Nobody that i know is linebreeding these festae by means of inbreeding!! im sure its been done. But i do know of festae that are being hand selected from various spawns with particular traits and breeding them to another fish with the same or better traits to pul out better potential. similar to line breeding. Kinda like what im doing with my umbees, breeding this new location X umbee to a rio mag hoping to yield an umbee with the body of a rio mag and the freckles and color of the X.

RD - one key point is that all wild fish aren't created equal. Exactly

Somewhere along the way (perhaps in a pond in Florida), festae that should have been culled (b/c of strange mouths) were allowed to reproduce. That the genetically problematic fish at the heart of the genetic anomoly were wild, F1, F2 or F100 has little to do with it. They were deformed and should not have been bred for the aquarium.

Yes i definitely agree with this statement

Another misconception is that wild fish are not siblings. The "Arroyo" above is likely only populated with new blood when there is a big flood. How often that occurs is anyone's guess. Rest assured that there are more than likely related fish pairing off and breeding there. Such natural line breeding (for traits that make the animals better adapted to that pond vs. the traits that make them desirable for aquarists) is the reason that fish from that pond ("Arroyo Cardozo") are "different" than in the ones a few miles away.

Matt

And that last statement of the pond raised fish is where i believe the downward sloping mouth comes from vs the strong muzzles from wild fish.

this thread i started is an open discussion to help people to be able to determine what is good and what is not. hoping to get them to actually know what they are buying and what deformities are out there and what to look for. This is by no means me trying be to holier than tho!!! If you go back and read my initial post, you will clearly see this has nothing to do with what i personally like in festae. And im not trying to pass my fish off as badass. because its more than clear that there are plenty of people who bought woodland strains, or collected their own and are breeding quality festae. and some people dont understand because they obviously havent collected or experienced what im talking about. and would rather quote something they read or heard about from someone else which makes it completely irrelevant!!

Yes there is deformities in the wild! Yes, its the responsibility of the collectors and importers to inspect their fish prior to shipping. now we obviously know that it doesnt happen all the time and with high numbers of fish being moved there are good possibilities of them being overlooked. The quality of a fish has nothing to do with the f number. it is all genetics. I never once said my fish were great and someone elses is trash. Again like posted in the beginning, i stated that this thread may hurt peoples feelings also not to personaly attack any individuals.

And yes most of the traits i mentioned are what is to be considered what wild ecuador festae look like and is a part of survival of the fittest. First the mouth, a strong mouth is designed to allow festae to eat crustaceans. which adds to their profile. second, the high body is also part of the build meaning the fish is bulky and has good body mass. which aides in the survival game!! obviously the color and bars has nothing to do with that and is more of a personal preference.

 

[peathenster]

Interesting read. I need more education on two points (among others):

- What's this deformity that everybody is talking about, and can somebody PLEASE post some pictures? And why exactly is it considered a deformity?
- How do you measure "mouth strength"?



I'll in turn contribute a little background info:

About your "the high body is also part of the build meaning the fish is bulky and has good body mass. which aides in the survival game!!" comment - "strong/bulky/thick" does not necessarily mean "fit". It's actually a common misconception. The word "fitness" has a very specific meaning in population genetics. Simply put, it refers to the ability of an individual (or a genotype) to contribute to the gene pool of the next generation. The two most important factors are survival and reproduction. With regard to survival for this species, the ability to cope with available resources should not be underestimated.

Let me describe a simple example to you (I can give you the paper if you are interested). There are two types of fruit flies on an island that are distinguished from each other by a single chromosomal rearrangement. Type A are smaller as adults, but they mature early and reproduce quickly. Type B flies take longer to reach adulthood but they are bigger and stronger as adults. So which type is the fittest? In years when food is abundant, type B is, because the adults are stronger and more resistant to wind, which means they have a higher survival rate. In years when food is scarce, type A is, because type B don't even have enough food/time to mature. You see, bigger/stronger doesn't always mean "fitter". It also depends on what's available to them from year to year. This is precisely why you often see many alleles for a given gene in a population, although the allele frequencies themselves can change from year to year.

If you have time, here is an interesting example during human evolution: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2141-2004Oct27.html

 

[jgentry]

RD - one key point is that all wild fish aren't created equal. I didn't bring home the funny-mouthed guy above because it wouldn't make sense to risk having the (possible) genes that caused , even if 99% of the viable (F1) offspring have typical mouths. I took more typical stock.

Somewhere along the way (perhaps in a pond in Florida), festae that should have been culled (b/c of strange mouths) were allowed to reproduce. That the genetically problematic fish at the heart of the genetic anomoly were wild, F1, F2 or F100 has little to do with it. They were deformed and should not have been bred for the aquarium.

Another misconception is that wild fish are not siblings. The "Arroyo" above is likely only populated with new blood when there is a big flood. How often that occurs is anyone's guess. Rest assured that there are more than likely related fish pairing off and breeding there. Such natural line breeding (for traits that make the animals better adapted to that pond vs. the traits that make them desirable for aquarists) is the reason that fish from that pond ("Arroyo Cardozo") are "different" than in the ones a few miles away.

Matt

The wild fish being siblings is a key point that many people do not seem to grasp. It's very likely that when you buy young wild caught fish in the 0.5-2" range that they are siblings. Collectors often net out groups of fry that are all from the same spawn. I've had several collectors say they look for pairs with fry and them try to get a good portion of the fry. This gives them a lot of small easily shipped fish instead of larger fish that have to be bagged seperately and end up making less money. So please do not assume because you bought wild fish that you are not inbreeding when you spawn them.

As for the festae, I think this is being over evaluated a little. One of the major problems is that the hobby has people breeding festae from all different collection locations together. Each habitat will be slightly different and it could very well be that in some areas festae with taller bodies are more common because the water is not moving as fast. Another area might have more current and slimmer festae. Another area might have festae with slightly different mouth structures because it benefits there feeding habits. Mixing all of these different lines is not a good idea and could be contributing to some of the inconsistancies.

It could also be that festae are just not that naturally strong like some other cichlids. There is a reason that they come in and out of the hobby and have for years. Festae have come in cycles like this for as long as I can remember. No one can get them, everyone wants them, no one is even spawning them. Then all of the sudden wilds, tank breds, etc are available readily and cheaply. In 2 years or less we will be back to no one can get them. So what happened to all of the festae from the years back when they were available? The same thing that is happening to them now, most are dying off. They grow slowly, tend to pick off there mates or others in the grow out groups, and they are certainly not the hardiest of cichlids. They are far from fragile, but there certainly are several reasons why they keep disappearing for cycles in the aquarium trade.

 

[duanes]

Here is a pic of one of my past festae.
I would not consider the long snout a deformity. I might consider it an adaptation to an environmental change to aid in feeding as in the above post with fruit flys.
If say, a volcanic eruption occurs in Peru, and the only food available is hiding in cracks in rocks, this festae may have the desired adaptation.
Deformities to be culled, IMO, are bent or S curved spines, exposed gill rakers and the like. I have seen many of these in LFS in popular species like Oscars. If I notice any of this in my spawns, they are used as feeders.