Filtration Necessary?

[Jon M]

So I was just reading threw one of the recent threads on here. They were discussing how a sump is definitely better than a canister and the negatives about a canister in sw. Okay, well instead of snaking the thread to discuss this subject I figured I'd start my own here.

I was under the impression filtration wasn't technically necessary for sw provided you have enough LR in the tank since that acts as the filtration and you don't want biological filtration anywhere else ie: sump, canister, hob, w/e. Is this not so? I have been cycling my first sw tank for a little over a month now and I'm not running anything in there but a heater for water temp, and 2 1,300gph powerheads, or wavemakers, for current. Am I wrong here? On a side note my readings are ammonia .25, nitrite 0, nitrate 20, so it seems to be cycling okay w/o the filtration. (minus the slight ammonia trace that I believe we're going to call dry rock die off since i can't explain it any other way)

 

[nonstophoops]

So I was just reading threw one of the recent threads on here. They were discussing how a sump is definitely better than a canister and the negatives about a canister in sw. Okay, well instead of snaking the thread to discuss this subject I figured I'd start my own here.

I was under the impression filtration wasn't technically necessary for sw provided you have enough LR in the tank since that acts as the filtration and you don't want biological filtration anywhere else ie: sump, canister, hob, w/e. Is this not so? I have been cycling my first sw tank for a little over a month now and I'm not running anything in there but a heater for water temp, and 2 1,300gph powerheads, or wavemakers, for current. Am I wrong here? On a side note my readings are ammonia .25, nitrite 0, nitrate 20, so it seems to be cycling okay w/o the filtration. (minus the slight ammonia trace that I believe we're going to call dry rock die off since i can't explain it any other way)

Yes, it is technically possible. Not something I would recommend.

How big is the tank?

You need really high flow(probably more than you have) to keep detritus suspended and most likely don't want rock stacked against the back wall because it will leave too many places for wastes to pile up and cause problems. The high flow will also help keep the water oxygenated because you don't have a skimmer or sump injecting air into the water. You must also lightly stock and feed your fish. Even with that you will have a tough time keeping nitrates down without significant frequent water changes involving siphoning wastes off of the rocks and bottom/sand.

If you have 20 nitrates you shouldn't have ammonia unless you very very recently had a lot of die off.

So, while possible, I would at minimum look at getting a hang on back skimmer to help pull wastes out and keep the water oxygenated.(I currently run a tank with powerheads and an aqua c remora. I recently added a hob filter just to catch the big stuff, but it hasn't made much of a difference. It is lightly stocked, but heavily fed. I do 15 gallon or more water changes at minimum every 10 days though and I still have pretty high nitrates.

 

[Jon M]

Thanks for the response nonstophoops.

The tank is a 40 gallon breeder. It's 3' long X 18" deep (front to back) X 17" tall (however that's with black trim so realistically 16" water level.

I feel like I am over kill on current at the moment. I have 2x 1,300gph power heads in there and before I added this new 20lb of rock (just tonight) the current was so heavy it would dig up certain spots of the substrate all the way to the bottom glass.

I'm not trying to bare minimum run the tank, I'm just slowing adding equipment as funds permit. Just moved and in the process of starting my new job. I planned on adding a protein skimmer like this one in the future. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aquarium-Pr...441?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2569ade6c9

Right now there is no live stock in the tank. I have raw shrimp to keep the cycle going. I'm a bit baffled with the .25 ammonia. I had 13lb of dry rock when I started the tank. 3lb of that was "seeded" rubble from a lfs to get the cycle started. I just added 22 more lbs of dry rock tonight. (all from reefcleaners.org btw) Also, I don't have anything stacked on the back. My rock is stacked right up the center of the tank.

As far as lightly stocked, here was my planned stock minus CUC of course...

- 1 clownfish (ocellaris)
- 1 bicolored blenny
- 1 orangemarked goby
- 1 bicolor dottyback
- 1 scissortail dartfish
- 2 firefish
- 1 dwarf bicolor angelfish

So you wouldn't recommend it because there is lack of large waste removal, and lack of flow causing less oxygen in the water? Just making sure I understood correctly.

 

[nonstophoops]

Thanks for the response nonstophoops.

The tank is a 40 gallon breeder. It's 3' long X 18" deep (front to back) X 17" tall (however that's with black trim so realistically 16" water level. I see.

I feel like I am over kill on current at the moment. I have 2x 1,300gph power heads in there and before I added this new 20lb of rock (just tonight) the current was so heavy it would dig up certain spots of the substrate all the way to the bottom glass.I would say you are good on current in a 40. The key is tweaking the powerheads until you don't get sand problems.

I'm not trying to bare minimum run the tank, I'm just slowing adding equipment as funds permit. Just moved and in the process of starting my new job. I planned on adding a protein skimmer like this one in the future. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aquarium-Pr...441?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2569ade6c9I am not particularly familiar with this brand, but I would look to get a better one. You really get what you pay for with skimmers.

Right now there is no live stock in the tank. I have raw shrimp to keep the cycle going. I'm a bit baffled with the .25 ammonia. I had 13lb of dry rock when I started the tank. 3lb of that was "seeded" rubble from a lfs to get the cycle started. I just added 22 more lbs of dry rock tonight. (all from reefcleaners.org btw) Also, I don't have anything stacked on the back. My rock is stacked right up the center of the tank.I would pull the shrimp. Once you have nitrates, you don't need the shrimp anymore. That is most likely what is causing the ammonia.

Good keeping it in the middle, that will help with filtering and minimizing dead spots.

As far as lightly stocked, here was my planned stock minus CUC of course...

- 1 clownfish (ocellaris)
- 1 bicolored blenny
- 1 orangemarked goby
- 1 bicolor dottyback
- 1 scissortail dartfish
- 2 firefish
- 1 dwarf bicolor angelfish

I would in no way consider this low bioload. That is a lot of fish for a 40.

So you wouldn't recommend it because there is lack of large waste removal, and lack of flow causing less oxygen in the water Skimmer injects air into water and creates more water movement/turnover. Sumps provide more surface area for air exchange. Just making sure I understood correctly.

Hope this helps.

 

[Wiggles92]

I agree with what Dustin stated in his posts.

Also, keep in mind that these filter-less and/or skimmer-less aquariums tend to have a super low bioload as in maybe a fish or two plus corals and inverts, if that, coupled with minimal feedings; they pretty much always have a ton of water flow thanks to plenty of powerheads.

 

[Jon M]

I'm starting to notice that tweaking it to where you don't get sand movement is the key. I just turned my left ones direction up a bit today. We'll see if the sand is still in place tomorrow.

As far as protein skimmer, I also considered the red sea prizm design. Familiar with that one at all? Too weak for 40g?

There is no shrimp currently. It hasn't had shrimp in days. But keeping in mind I have 0 livestock in this tank, doesn't there need to be a constant source of ammonia for the cycle to remain in tact? If not won't the bb die off with nothing to feed on?

I had no idea about the keeping it in the middle thing. I just kind of didn't want rock against my glass and I guess I lucked out putting it all in the middle.

So you would consider my stock list to be overstocked for what I'm going for? I'm starting as a FOWLR technically, but in the long hull want to go reef and be able to do soft/hard corals.

 

[Pazzoman]

Thier is actually a site that shows how to run a filterless tank however it would be lots of rocks, good protein skimmer, very very light stock (2-3 fish depending on tank size), water changes,lots of inverts hermits....lots of factors probably if you google...scratch that bing it cause you know google is taking over the world "Filterless Marine Tank Set Ups" might find something..

Good Luck, keeps us posted if you attempt

 

[Wiggles92]

I'm starting to notice that tweaking it to where you don't get sand movement is the key. I just turned my left ones direction up a bit today. We'll see if the sand is still in place tomorrow.

As far as protein skimmer, I also considered the red sea prizm design. Familiar with that one at all? Too weak for 40g?

There is no shrimp currently. It hasn't had shrimp in days. But keeping in mind I have 0 livestock in this tank, doesn't there need to be a constant source of ammonia for the cycle to remain in tact? If not won't the bb die off with nothing to feed on?

I had no idea about the keeping it in the middle thing. I just kind of didn't want rock against my glass and I guess I lucked out putting it all in the middle.

So you would consider my stock list to be overstocked for what I'm going for? I'm starting as a FOWLR technically, but in the long hull want to go reef and be able to do soft/hard corals.

Oversize the skimmer if at all possible, especially if you're going for a filter-less setup.

You can add some dwarf blue leg hermits and/or snails at this point in order to keep the BB happy.

As far as stocking goes, add a single fish and watch the parameters closely before adding any further fishes. Be sure to account for any increase in the size of the fish(es) and the increased bioload as a result of said growth. Personally, I would add the bicolor blenny first because they stay pretty small, have a great personality, and do a number on the bad algae; my old one really helped to keep the aquarium clean before he met his demise (and then the algae exploded). Just be sure to keep it well fed if you make this into a reef since it might nip clam mantles and corals if it's underfed.

 

[Jon M]

I guess I just don't see the huge difference from running it how it is currently, or adding say a HOB. It's really just more water movement and biological filtration which I was under the premise that was supposed to reside in the LR for sw setups.

Oversizing the skimmer duly noted. I'm not at the point to buy that right yet anyhow. Still need a better light, then skimmer, then stock!

Okay so what in the "worm" is this guy?

The lights are currently off for the night but I walked back there and turned on the room light to admire my new rock scaping and saw this guy crawling on the glass. He crawled right into the sand and burrowed right down into it and is gone now. Uhm, spoon worm? If so how on earth did he get in there? Could he survive reefcleaners.org professional pressure washing the rock, and being out of water, and shipping, or do you think he came from the rubble from the lfs and I just now and finally catching a view of him? The rubble was connected to the sw tanks at the lfs but didn't have any live stock in the actual rubble tank.

 

[nonstophoops]

I guess I just don't see the huge difference from running it how it is currently, or adding say a HOB. It's really just more water movement and biological filtration which I was under the premise that was supposed to reside in the LR for sw setups. First off, HOB Filters and skimmers are not biological, but mechanical. I don't think a HOB filter is much different than not having one. It just catches big chunks of waste and excess food before they break down in the system. The filter pads can be cleaned or replaced to remove that waste. It reduces the load the rock has to handle because honestly it can't keep up unless you do all the things mentioned(stock lightly, feed lightly, lots of rock, lots of flow, lots of water volume.) The berlin method is really outdated and there are better ways of doing things now days that are out there.

Oversizing the skimmer duly noted. I'm not at the point to buy that right yet anyhow. Still need a better light, then skimmer, then stocking. I would change the order of purchase on these, skimmer first or while doing some stocking, lastly better light, then corals once everything is stabilized.

Okay so what in the "worm" is this guy?

The lights are currently off for the night but I walked back there and turned on the room light to admire my new rock scaping and saw this guy crawling on the glass. He crawled right into the sand and burrowed right down into it and is gone now. Uhm, spoon worm? If so how on earth did he get in there? Could he survive reefcleaners.org professional pressure washing the rock, and being out of water, and shipping, or do you think he came from the rubble from the lfs and I just now and finally catching a view of him? This is most likely the case. You will probably(hopefully) see many more interesting creatures.The rubble was connected to the sw tanks at the lfs but didn't have any live stock in the actual rubble tank.

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