Firemouth: Prolonged Hole In The Head

[RD.]

Quite possibly a resistant strain of bacteria. See my comments, post #11 & 12 in the following discussion.

https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/question-about-quarantining-new-arrivals.598971/

 

[jeep07]

Quite possibly a resistant strain of bacteria. See my comments, post #11 & 12 in the following discussion.

https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/question-about-quarantining-new-arrivals.598971/

Thanks for the link...I had no idea that antibiotic resistance was so prevalent. I have been observing the Firemouth in the 75g and he is not acting like himself. He has not eaten and the lesions are all white now. I have decided to try giving him medicine (i.e. Seachem Metroplex) by syringe as I do not know how else to get rid of the heavy infestations of parasites. I cannot 100% confirm the following, but it appears his triangular mouth is not as triangular as it should be. Would a 5ml syringe be sufficient?

 

[jeep07]

Just to be clear, I intended the above question for anyone. For everyone who has contributed, I thank you.

 

[Rocksor]

Thanks for the link...I had no idea that antibiotic resistance was so prevalent. I have been observing the Firemouth in the 75g and he is not acting like himself. He has not eaten and the lesions are all white now. I have decided to try giving him medicine (i.e. Seachem Metroplex) by syringe as I do not know how else to get rid of the heavy infestations of parasites. I cannot 100% confirm the following, but it appears his triangular mouth is not as triangular as it should be. Would a 5ml syringe be sufficient?

Add 3% epsom salt solution to the metro mix. (1/2 cup of distilled water with 3/4 pure epsom salt)

 

[duanes]

I consider nitrate readings of 40 ppm (in fact I consider 20ppm) to be very stressful for cichlids, and could be a contributor to its conditions.
If those conditions have persisted for years, I'm not surprised the HITH has not gone away, it may not be reversible. There is some research suggesting anything over 20ppm allows bacteria to more easily infect many species.
If it were me, I'd be doing (minimum) 30% water changes every other day, to get the nitrate level down.
My normal routine is 30-40% every other day , and my nitrate target high is 5ppm nitrate.

 

[RD.]

yup, what duane said.

 

[jeep07]

I consider nitrate readings of 40 ppm (in fact I consider 20ppm) to be very stressful for cichlids, and could be a contributor to its conditions.
If those conditions have persisted for years, I'm not surprised the HITH has not gone away, it may not be reversible. There is some research suggesting anything over 20ppm allows bacteria to more easily infect many species.
If it were me, I'd be doing (minimum) 30% water changes every other day, to get the nitrate level down.
My normal routine is 30-40% every other day , and my nitrate target high is 5ppm nitrate.

Do you have on hand those studies showing elevated nitrate readings being detrimental and/or the keywords used to search for studies like that? I believe you, I just like to read through the studies and go through the references. I will be testing my nitrates later today or tomorrow.

 

[Rocksor]

Do you have on hand those studies showing elevated nitrate readings being detrimental and/or the keywords used to search for studies like that? I believe you, I just like to read through the studies and go through the references. I will be testing my nitrates later today or tomorrow.

References

• (1) Camargo, Julio A., 2004, Nitrate Toxicity to aquatic animals: a Review with new data for freshwater invertebrates, Chemosphere 58 (2005) 1255-1267
• (2) Colt, J., Tchobanoglous, G., 1976. Evaluation of the short-term toxicity of nitrogenous compounds to channel catfish, Ictalurus punctatus. Aquaculture 8, 209–221
• (3) Edwards. Thea M., 2006, Water Quality Influences Reproduction In Female Mosquitofish (Gambusia holbrookie) from Eight Florida Springs, Environment Health Perspectives, Vol 114, Supplement 1
• (4) Hrubec, Terry C., Nitrate Toxicity: A Problem of Recirculating System, Aquatic Medicine Laboratiry, Virginia-Maryland Regional College Of Veterinary Medicine.
• (5) Kincheloe, J.W., Wedemeyer, G.A., Koch, D.L., 1979. Toler- ance of developing salmonid eggs and fry to nitrate exposure. Bull. Environ. Contam. Toxicol. 23, 575–578
• (6) Scott, G., Crunkilton, R.L., 2000. Acute and chronic toxicity of nitrate to fathead minnows (Pimephales promelas), Cerio- daphnia dubia and Daphnia magna. Environ. Toxicol. Chem. 19, 2918–2922
• (7) Shimura, Ryuji, 2004, Nitrate Toxicity on Visceral Organs of Medaka Fish, Oryzias latipes : Aiming to Raise Fish From Egg To Egg in Space, Biological Sciences in Space, Vol. 18 No1 (2004):7-12
• (8) DELLAMANO-OLIVEIRA, Maria José, SENNA, Pedro Américo Cabral and TANIGUCHI, Glória Massae. Limnological characteristics and seasonal changes in density and diversity of the phytoplanktonic community at the Caçó pond, Maranhão State, Brazil. Braz. arch. biol. technol. [online]. 2003, vol. 46, no. 4 [cited 2006-11-03], pp. 641-651.
• (9) Mayorga, Emilio, 2002, Processing of Bioactive Elements in the Amazon River System, The Ecohydrology of South American Rivers and Wetlands. IAHS Special Publication no. 6, 2002
• (10) Lewis, William M., 2006, Concentration and transport of dissolved and suspended substances in the Orinoco River, Biodegradation Volume 7, Number 3 / May, 1989, 0923-9820 (Print) 1572-9729 (Online)

Summary by hobbyist
http://oscarfish.com/water/79-is-nitrate-toxic-a-study-of-nitrate-toxicity.html

 

[duanes]

I happened upon the study by accident, while studying microbiology years ago, and have unfortunately lost track of it.
It made sense because although nitrate is much less toxic than ammonia or nitrite, it is still toxic, so chronic problems from long term exposure seems very reasonable, and because its effects are usually due to long term exposure, the effects are easily mistaken as solely the result of internal parasites, some other unrelated problem.
Back when I started keeping fish in the late 1950s, water changes were thought to be detrimental, and at the time, the oscars and Geophagines I kept, commonly developed HITH. After the general aquarium community (and me) became more enlightened about the positive effects of water changes, I found HITH became a thing of the past.
I remember when the general consensus was that a fish would only grow proportionally to the size of the tank. I believe that lack of growth had more to do with nitrate buildup and other poor water quality issues instead.

 

[jeep07]

I happened upon the study by accident, while studying microbiology years ago, and have unfortunately lost track of it.
It made sense because although nitrate is much less toxic than ammonia or nitrite, it is still toxic, so chronic problems from long term exposure seems very reasonable, and because its effects are usually due to long term exposure, the effects are easily mistaken as solely the result of internal parasites, some other unrelated problem.
Back when I started keeping fish in the late 1950s, water changes were thought to be detrimental, and at the time, the oscars and Geophagines I kept, commonly developed HITH. After the general aquarium community (and me) became more enlightened about the positive effects of water changes, I found HITH became a thing of the past.
I remember when the general consensus was that a fish would only grow proportionally to the size of the tank. I believe that lack of growth had more to do with nitrate buildup and other poor water quality issues instead.

Thank you very much for the references! Seeing as I was mistaken about my water parameters before, I believe it is entirely possible that my fish have been exposed to less than ideal water conditions for an extended period of time. In your opinion, what is the chance of my Firemouth having Hole in The Head due to less than ideal water conditions? Also, if you believe my past water conditions to be the culprit, are any medications going to help? I remember someone saying the fish's condition may not be reversible, but If I do not have to give him medicine, than I will not. I have started using a syringe to give him a little bit of food mixed with Metronidazole.