Fish, Cycling, and a whole lotta MATH!

  • We are currently upgrading MFK. thanks! -neo

RadleyMiller

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Aug 15, 2006
2,591
2
0
Delaware
www.myspace.com
Right now this is all theoretical and assumes that every bacteria reproduces every generation.

From the start of this I am going to write my two function:

Model of the growth of a bacteria colony from another source, given that the source give 1000 bacterium.
C(t) = (1000)(2^t)

Derivative of that function:
C'(t) = (1000)(2t)^(t-1)

Model of growth of a bacteria colony starting from scratch (10 bacteria).
C(t) = (10)(2^t)

Derivative of that function:
C'(t) = (10)(2t)^(t-1)

It is a lot easier for new bateria to grow under this condtion C(t) = (1000)(2^t) than under this condition C(t) = (10)(2^t) when C (colony) is a function of t (time) and the base is assuming how many bacteria there are on the filter when t=0 aka when the tank is set up for the case of the second function and 1000 colonies in the first because the Bio-spira or other culture was added.

By looking at these functions, we can quickly see how fast a tank cycles when we seed it with bacteria. With these models, seeding a tank that requires 1 billion bacteria takes 3/4 of the time. If you want the math you just have to solve for t when C = 10^9.

Anyone else check this? What do you all think? Someone with a degree? I am only a senior in highschool!
 
a senior in high school huh? Pretty sure I would have been doing somthing other than math at that age. Or should I say someONE else:)
 
I failed to see the point in this or didn’t completely understand what you were trying to say, but just by using a common sense I would say that it is quite obvious that if the colony is bigger in the beginning the whole process will be “finished” faster. That’s why the Bio-spira etc are used in the first place. For the same reason I added some soil from a flower pot to my aquarium when I was setting it up in order to get the nitrification process up and running faster and I also fed the bacteria with ammonia.
 
If you base you calculations on an assumption how can it be valid or all things could be valid. If your tank was started with fresh untreated tap water wouldn't you have to assume a negative number for Ct, because the chlorine would preclude any bacteria be in the water and would kill any new bacteria added for a set amount of time=t where-in t is the time it takes for chlorine to disapate (chloramine not valid here) before bacteria can grow. And since Bio-spira is used vs natural bacteria growth you have an reverse-logrithmic accelerated growth rate (barring improper shipment and storage of product).

If you ASS U ME anything then figure it's going to cost you more in the long run

Did I mention I HATE calculus...

CHOMPERS! Where are you?! HELP...

Dr Joe


Also, you forgot to feed your bacteria...bio-load cannot be assumed since it is such a big variable.

I still HATE calculus...

Is this for school, 'cause if it is WE want credit too...:ROFL:

Dr Joe

.
 
Dr Joe;537240; said:
If you base you calculations on an assumption how can it be valid or all things could be valid. If your tank was started with fresh untreated tap water wouldn't you have to assume a negative number for Ct, because the chlorine would preclude any bacteria be in the water and would kill any new bacteria added for a set amount of time=t where-in t is the time it takes for chlorine to disapate (chloramine not valid here) before bacteria can grow. And since Bio-spira is used vs natural bacteria growth you have an reverse-logrithmic accelerated growth rate (barring improper shipment and storage of product).

If you ASS U ME anything then figure it's going to cost you more in the long run

Did I mention I HATE calculus...

CHOMPERS! Where are you?! HELP...

Dr Joe


Also, you forgot to feed your bacteria...bio-load cannot be assumed since it is such a big variable.

I still HATE calculus...

Is this for school, 'cause if it is WE want credit too...:ROFL:

Dr Joe

.

There are a lot of things that I didn't put into account in there. What you are saying makes a lot of sense, but I am sure that there are some bacteria that are resistant to chlorine. If there is a plasmid that has a resistance gene for anti-bacterial medicines, there could be some bacteria that are resistant to chlorine. I am not assuming this, but I am proposing it. I also forgot to consider the ammount of ammonia and nitrite consumed by the bacteria.

This isn't for school, I was trying to suggest buying a culture of Bio-Spira on someone else's thread for their sump. What I was trying to show was that they could get the smallest bottle of it and it would still culture faster than waiting for it to naturally happen.

Let me do some more calculations and I will scan my paper I did my math on into this thread.
 
Dr. Joe and everyone else, here are all of my calculations:
scanimg012.jpg

scanimg013.jpg

scanimg014.jpg


Sorry for the terrible handwriting! If you notice any flaws in the logic behind this, please point it out. I used the base 10 because it is easy to work with. This is basically a proof, not fact. What I am trying to accomplish by posting this is maybe getting all of the great thinkers around here to talk about cycling.

Factor's not taken into account:
Bioload in tank already
Food (NH4 and NO2) for bacteria
Multiple species of bacteria
Surface area for bacteria to grow on

Anything else to add to this.

Like I said, I am only in highschool and I am sure many of you have bachelors, masters, and PhDs, please look over this to see if there is any validity in what I am saying. I really don't want to look at this as something that made no sense and was a waste of time. Also remember, all of this is hypothetical. There are many variable that are different in the tank environment:

Base population of bacteria
% of bacteria population that grows
Time for one generation to occur

Thanks for putting up with me if this is all wrong. I just want to see what you all have to say. When I posted my Nitrate questions thread, I got some great responses and insight, I hope we can get this thread to get some of that as well.

If need be, I will post more scanned pages of work (if requested, and when I have the time to do that work)
 
MonsterFishKeepers.com