Fish only grow to the size of their environment.

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it must be Moron Saturday. There is nothing good in stunting fish-it is not ok, you don't just stunt their physical size, but you cause internal organ damage and eventually death.
it all comes down to being responsible fishkeepers, and loving your hobby and fish enough to research and gain knowledge in what you do, and what species you take care of and their needs. Reading one website, or a few books doesn't constitute someone a pro-along with owning a "store or two". Guys and gals, take time to learn and research stuff yourself so that you dont look like complete retards on here by arguing that stunting is okay.

it seems to me lately that this forum has really become more angled towards ppl flirting, sending pm's, (i had some idiot pm'ing me telling me im a milf- im not even a mom and it was offensive) arguing, stalking, religion, and horny teenagers than fishkeeping. its nice to have friendships here, but lets remember that this is a fishkeeping forum. ill get off my soapbox now and pull my undies out of my arse lol...
 
Notice he hasn't posted again........ roflmao
 
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navygirl76;1758512; said:
it seems to me lately that this forum has really become more angled towards ppl flirting, sending pm's, (i had some idiot pm'ing me telling me im a milf- im not even a mom and it was offensive) arguing, stalking, religion, and horny teenagers than fishkeeping. its nice to have friendships here, but lets remember that this is a fishkeeping forum. ill get off my soapbox now and pull my undies out of my arse lol...
With an avatar like that, you cannot blame people for sending you PM telling you how hot you're.:) Yes, I find the MILF comment about you offensive as well. And you're right people should do some research in books and online before making claims.


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it seems to me lately that this forum has really become more angled towards ppl flirting, sending pm's, (i had some idiot pm'ing me telling me im a milf- im not even a mom and it was offensive) arguing, stalking, religion, and horny teenagers than fishkeeping. its nice to have friendships here, but lets remember that this is a fishkeeping forum. ill get off my soapbox now and pull my undies out of my arse lol...[/quote]
You are right, but that's what happens when a girl is in a hobby that is usually a man thing. (men are pigs, I should know, I am one)
I have rescued, and rehomed fish that were stunted in small tanks, people just need to do a little research before buying a living creature.
 
Bderick67;1758373; said:
I would agree, a fish can never outgrow the tank it is kept in.




It will DIE first

This is why so many LFS will support this "fish will grow to tank size". The fish does exactly that and the customer is back in a few months buying more fish to replace the ones that die.

Wow... people seem to really have some sh***y LFS's around them. All of the lfs's I have worked at in the past (3 of them in 2 different cities) have been incredibly aware of fish health and perfectly willing to protect the well-being of a fish over making a dollar. I'll admit, I did work with one guy who sold some big fish to people with small tanks, but that was because he was so enveloped in his saltwater hobby that he had no idea of the max attainable size of some of these freshwater predators.
 
53special;1758915; said:
You are right, but that's what happens when a girl is in a hobby that is usually a man thing. (men are pigs, I should know, I am one)
I have rescued, and rehomed fish that were stunted in small tanks, people just need to do a little research before buying a living creature.
Speak for yourself; not on behalf of the rest of the men that are not pigs.:banhim:
 
This is the introduction including citations to the study I am currently working on, I will post the whole paper when I am finished with it. I am convinced the the main reason that most (normally Large) fish kept in aquariums or in small aquariums do not obtain their maximum size or out grow the small tanks is the way their fed. I was approached at an LFS with a question about why Oscars kept in a 55 gallon tank only reached about 4 inches long after 3 years. When I asked what they were being fed, I was told flake food. The question then becomes: Are Large fish (ie, Oscars, comets, ect.) kept in small aquariums fed like small aquarium fish (ie: swordtails, mollies, bettas, ect.) which does not allow for the nutritional resources for proper growth?

Bluegills are important components of freshwater communities and are numerically dominant in many freshwater lakes throughout North America (Aday et al, 2002). Bluegill populations exhibit complex social structures and the life histories of individuals can be shaped by social interactions within the population showed that the presence of large mature males delayed the maturation of immature males (Aday et. al, 2003). The tremendous reproductive ability of bluegills can cause problems for the fish pond owner. Bluegills often produce more young than the pond can support. When this happens, bluegill growth is very poor and few fish reach sizes desired by the pond owner.
The rate of growth in a bluegill depends on the amount of food it eats. According to the Indiana Department of Natural Resources, slow growing bluegill populations are the most severe problem in Indiana fish ponds (INDNR). This slow growth is commonly referred to as stunting. Stunting is a common phenomenon in fish populations and can be the result of a variety of mechanisms. Stunted populations are defined as occurring when only a few of the fish present in the pond have been able to obtain a legal size (Swingle & Smith, 1942).Fish growth is often controlled by environmental conditions such as food and space (Murnyak et al, 1984). There are various degrees of stunting; the principle causes of such a condition are as follows: (1) overstocking, (2) absence of sufficient carnivorous fish, and (3) heavy weed growth in ponds (Swingle & Smith, 1942).
In determining whether or not a population is stunted, population estimates that are derived from direct counts, from catch statistics, from marking-and-recapture techniques, and by various combinations of these methods (Koster, 1955); must be done to ensure that the population is viable and the sample is representative of the whole population and not young of the year. The preferred method in small ponds seems to be the marking-and-recapture technique, where a certain amount of fish are caught, tagged, and then released back into the pond. The researcher then waits a given amount of time (depends on the research) and goes back to the pond to recapture fish, all fish not just the fish with the tags. The number of fish is counted and wrote down; the number of tagged fish is counted and wrote down. It is then calculated as follows:

Total population = total size of 2nd sample X marked # in 1st catch
marked # recaptured in 2nd catch

The total population will also held to figure the extent of schooling, and the composition of the schools as regards to sex, size, age of the individuals, and the inclusion of other species (Koster, 1955). Many factors influence the demography of natural populations, making the detection of causal factors very difficult (Vanni, 1986). In the case of fish populations, researchers have used comparative studies to attribute this variability to environmental and geographic factors, such as latitude of water bodies, thermal regime, length of growing season, productivity of food availability, predation, and degree of environmental fluctuation (Fox, 1994).
Habitat use by bluegill often depends on prey availability and predator avoidance. The process of prey selection by visually foraging fish depends heavily on the visual capabilities of the predator, which affect its ability to detect and recognize potential prey (Kao et al, 1985). Food habits studies suggest that bluegills consume benthic and epiphytic macroinvertebrates and may also consume zooplankton when predation risk is limited and foraging efficiency is greater in open-water habitats (Paukert and Willis, 2002). Since bluegills capture prey individually and swallow them intact, the size and type of prey consumed by a foraging fish are easily determined from gut contents (Mittelbach, 1981). Analysis of stomach contents of bluegills from stunted populations reveal that starving individuals will eat fish eggs of both their own and other species (Swingle and Smith, 1942).
Numerous studies have been made of bluegill age and growth based on the scale method (Reiger, 1962). Many species of fish lay down concentric annual growth rings, or annuli, in bony structures and scales. When a fish is captured, its age can be determined by counting the annuli; information can be obtained by measuring the distance between annuli, which is thought to vary with more interesting physical characteristics such as length (Weisberg, 1986). Gerking (1954) figured out that the length of individual fish at each annulus can be calculated as follows:

Fork Length of fish at time = 20 + (scale radius at year x) (fork length – 20)
of annulus formation total scale radius

Bony fish have three pairs of ear stones, or otoliths, that record age and other important events in their lives. The sagitta is usually the largest otolith and is the one that is studied most often, but the lapillus and asteriscus can also be informative (Bell, 2001). Otoliths of larval and juvenile fish provide a record of age, size, growth, and development (Fey et al, 2005). Seasonal variation in growth rate results in annual patterns, or annuli, in otoliths, because the thickness of daily increments is related to body growth (Bell, 2001). In a 2005 study by the South Dakota Department of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, it was found that bluegill age estimates for scales were less precise than those for otoliths (Edwards et al, 2005) which confirmed a 2001 study in Illinois (Hoxmeier et al, 2001). All ages for each species must be validated (Beamish & McFarlane, 1983) due to the inconsistencies in the annuli. Validating a method of age determination is as important in fisheries biology as standardizing solutions or calibrating instruments are in other sciences (Beamish & McFarlane, 1983). Validation of the scale method is as easy as using the otolith method and comparing the two.


Works Cited:

Aday, D.D., Kush, C.M., Wahl, D.H., and Philipp D.P. 2002. The influence of stunted body size on reproductive ecology of bluegill Lepomis Macrochirus. Ecology of Freshwater Fish. 11: 109-195.

Aday, D.D., Wahl, D.H., and Philipp D.P. 2003. Assessing population-specific and environmental influences on bluegill life histories: A common garden approach. Ecology, 12: 3370-3375.

Aday, D.D., Wahl, D.H., and Philipp D.P. 2005. Sex-specific life history patterns in bluegill (Lepomis macrochirus): interacting mechanisms influence individual body size. Oecologia 147: 31-38.

Atmar, G.L., and K.W. Stewart. 1972. Food, feeding selectivity and ecological efficiencies of fundulus notatus (Cyprinodontidae). American Midland Naturalist 88: 76-89.

Beamish, R.J., and G.A. McFarlane. 1983. The forgotten requirement for age validation in fisheries biology. Transaction of the American Fisheries Society 112: 735-743.

Bell, M.A. 2001. Fish do not lie about their age…but they might lose count. Trends in Ecology and Evolution 16: 599-600.

Chase, H.B. 1946. Calculation of fish condition from scale dimensions in the bluegill, Lepomis macrochirus. Ecology 27(2): 182-184.

Dineen, C.F. 1953. An ecological study of a Minnesota pond. American Midland Naturalist 50(2): 349-376.

Edwards, K.R. et al. 2005. Comparison of scale and otolith age estimates for two South Dakota bluegill populations. Proceedings of the South Dakota Academy of Science 84: 181-186.

Elliott, J.M., and L. Persson. 1978. The estimation of daily rates of food consumption for fish. The Journal of Animal Ecology 47(3): 977-991.

Fey, D.P., G.E.B. Martin, J.A. Morris, and J.A. Hare. 2005. Effect of type of otolith and preparation technique on age estimation of larval and juvenile spot (Leiostomus xanthurus). Fish Bulletin 103: 544-552.

Fox, M.G. 1994. Growth, density and interspecific influences on pumpkinseed sunfish life histories. Ecology 75: 1157-1171.

Gerking, S.D. 1954. The food turnover of a bluegill population. Ecology 35: 490-498.

Hasler, A.D., and W. J. Wisby. 1958. The return of displaced largemouth bass and green sunfish to a “home” area. Ecology 39(2): 289-293.

Hoxmeier, R.J.H., D.D. Aday, and D.H. Wahl. 2001. Factors influencing precision of age estimation from scales and otoliths of bluegills in Illinois reservoirs. North American Journal of Fisheries Management 21: 374-380.

Hynes, H.B.N. 1950. The food of fresh-water Sticklebacks (Gasterosteus aculeatus and Pygosteus pungitius), with a review of methods used in studies of the food of fishes. The Journal of Animal Ecology 19:36-58.

Keenleyside, M.H.A. 1967. Behavior of male sunfishes (Genus Lepomis) towards females of three species. Evolution 21(4): 688-695.

Koster, W.J. 1955. Outline for an ecological life history study of a fish. Ecology 36: 141-153.

Kushlan, J.A. 1976. Environmental stability and fish community diversity. Ecology 57(4): 821-825.

Li, K.T., J. K. Wetterer and N. G. Hairston. 1985. Fish size, visual resolution, and prey selectivity. Ecology 66: 1729-1735.

MacPhee, C. 1961. An experimental study of competition for food in fish. Ecology 42(4): 666-681.

Mittelbach, G.G. 1981. Foraging efficiency and body size; a study of optimal diet and habitat use by bluegills. Ecology 62:1370-1386.

Munk, K. M. 2001. Walleye Pollock otolith aging: comparison of the techniques used by agencies. Alaska Department of Fish and Game Regional Information Report No.5J01-06.

Murnyak, D.F., Murnyak, M.O. and Wolgast, L.J. 1985. Growth of stunted and non-stunted bluegill sunfish in ponds. Progressive Fish Culturalist 46(2): 133-138.

Parker, R.A. 1958. Some effects of thinning on a population of fishes. Ecology 39(2): 304-317.

Paukert, C.P., and D.W. Willis. 2002. Seasonal and diel habitat selection by bluegills in a shallow natural lake. Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 131: 1131-1139.

Reiger, H.A. 1962. Validation of the scale method for estimating age and growth of bluegills. Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 91: 362-374.

Ricker, W.E. 1946. Production and utilization of fish populations. Ecological Monographs 16(4): 373-391.

Secor, D.H., J.M. Dean and E.H. Laban. 1991. Manual for otolith removal and preparation for microstructural examination. Electric Power Research Institute and Belle W. Baruch Institute for Marine Biology and Coastal Research, Columbia, South Carolina.

Swingle, H.S. & Smith, E.V. 1942. The management of ponds with stunted fish populations. Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 71: 102-105.

Turner, A.M. and G.G. Mittelbach. Predator avoidance and community structure: interactions among piscivores, planktivores, and plankton. Ecology 71(6): 2241-2254.

Vanni, M.J. 1986. Fish predation and Zooplankton demography indirect effects. Ecology 67: 337-354.

Weisberg, S. 1986. A linear model approach to back calculation of fish length. Journal of the American Statistical Association 81(396): 922-929.

Welker, M.T., C.L. Pierce, and D.H. Wahl. 1994. Growth and survival of larval fishes: Roles of competition and zooplankton abundance. Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 123: 703-717.

Wellborn, G.A. 1994. Sized-biased predation and prey life histories: a comparative study of freshwater amphipod populations. Ecology 75(7): 2104-2117.

Werner, E.E., and D.J. Hall. 1977. Competition and habitat shift in two sunfishes (Centrarchidae). Ecology 58: 869-876.

Werner, E.E. and D.J. Hall. 1979. Foraging efficiency and habitat switching in competing sunfishes. Ecology 60: 256-264.

Werner, E.E., Hall, D.J. and Werner, M.D. 1978. Littoral zone fish communities of two Florida lakes and a comparison with Michigan lakes. Environmental Biology of Fishes 3: 163-172.

Werner, E.E., J.F. Gilliam, D.J. Hall, and G.G. Mittlebach. 1983. An experimental test of the effects of predation risk on habitat use in fish. Ecology 64: 1540-1548.

Wohlschlag, D.E., R.O. Juliano. 1959. Seasonal changes in bluegill metabolism. Limnology and Oceanography 4: 195-209.
 
you guys are absolute turds, but you made me laugh lol.. :D

didnt james brown once sing "its a mans mans mans world baby.." ah well. im ok with that as long as i can play along in it. for the most part everyone on here is great, there is one or two waterheads but i guess with as many members that are on here we cant shoot for 100% Mensa material here. lol. :drool:
 
MustangMan;1755978; said:
Just a question, but how long do your fish normally live? Because stunted growth results in a very short life span, undue stress, which turns into serious diseases, and ultimately, a dead fish. How'd you like it if we made you live the rest of your life in a 8x8x16 room and you were never allowed out of it? you'd feel kinda cramped after about 5 minutes. (talking to the mac-some numbers-us-some numbers guy)

LOL, as I was reading more of this thread this is exactly what I was thinking...except I think you gave a little to much room with the 16! I was thinking more like 8x4x8 myself...the guy would NOT outgrow this, he may not live to his full potential in health, life or comfort...but he wouldn't outgrow it ;)
 
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