Fishless Cycle Failure
- Thread starter Rhinox
- Start date
Just an update to close loop on this thread. Finally, after all of 11 weeks, I've got a full cycle established. Finally saw nitrites drop back down to zero yesterday. Fed the sump about 8ppm ammonia and 24hrs later today tested 0 on both ammonia and nitrite. So not only a full cycle, but capable of a full bioload as 8ppm ammonia in 30g is the same amount of ammonia I'd use for 1-2ppm in the full ~150g system.
Still haven't resolved the foamy suds issue. I skimmed an oily film off the calm surface side a few times and skimmed some suds out of the aerated side as well but they just keep coming. Dumping 100% of the sump water when I move to set up should hopefully make that issue go away for good though.
Thanks to everyone who commented with advice. Still not sure why it took so long but it's done now and I can move on to the fun parts. I'll update again once I'm up and running and adding fish.
Still haven't resolved the foamy suds issue. I skimmed an oily film off the calm surface side a few times and skimmed some suds out of the aerated side as well but they just keep coming. Dumping 100% of the sump water when I move to set up should hopefully make that issue go away for good though.
Thanks to everyone who commented with advice. Still not sure why it took so long but it's done now and I can move on to the fun parts. I'll update again once I'm up and running and adding fish.
While I would commend you for your attention to detail, the scheme you describe seems overly complex. I will tell you how I have done this in the past. My approach relies upon Seachem Stability. First, spike your aquarium water with cane sugar. This will provide a carbon and energy source for the bb. Use a heaping tbsp for every 100 gallons. Next, take a bottle of Stability and pour off half of the clear buffer. Shake vigorously for 30 seconds. The liquid should now be cloudy. Pour into tank. Wait 24 hours and then add a couple of fish. Monitor ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels. Have more Stability and cane sugar on hand. Add additional cane sugar every 48 hours. If ammonia, etc. begin to creep up, perform a partial water change and then supplement with additional Stability. If the water begins to turn cloudy, stop adding the cane sugar. Add additional fish as permitted by nitrogenous waste levels. Basically, you will be titrating cane sugar and Stability, coupled with any required water changes to achieve the desired effect. Things should stabilize within one week. Beyond this, I also add a bottle of Stability following filter maintenance, to replenish the bb.
The nitrifying bacteria do not form spores. Stability contains only spores. Read the label. When your tank is cycled what your poured into it will have not given you the bacteria you end up with. These develop despite Stability not because of it. Next the bacteria do not live free swimming in the water, they live in a biofilm attached to hard surfaces. So adding more stability after a water changes is a waste of more money. Water changes do not remove nitrifying bacteria.
I would not do any of what is in the above post. For one consider this when being told one must use cane sugar. Beet sugar is essentially identical. But don't take my word for it:
Next, if one hunts down research papers you will find what is described in the post above involves such a twisting of conditions that it is silly to do this in hobby tanks. The nitrifying bacteris need and inorganic carbon source. There are two primary sources for this in tanks. The most obvious is CO2. In order to do the research into the use of of fructose (not sucrose), this is what must be done:
However, the second major source of inorganic carbon in tanks is carbonates and bicarbonates. These are what make KH for the most part. For the nitrosomas in the experiment to use fructose they had to be deprived of a preferred source of carbon.
If you want to cycle a tank quickly get a bacteria product which contained the right strains of ammonia and nitrite oxidizers. Feed them ammonia, make sure the water surface is agitated to foster gas exchange and make sure the KH does not start to drop too low. One can add carbonates/bicarbonates in several effective ways- crushed coral, calcium carbonate, sodium bicarbonate etc.
Over the years I have bookmarked dozens of papers relating to nitrifying bacteria in aquatic and other systems. I have never seen any of them mention cane sugar/fructose/sucrose for anything.
Finally, nature always works things out in pretty specific ways. The bacteria involved with the nitrogen cycle in tanks have been around for a very long time. If "sugar" were essential or a preferred and an effective way for them to function and survive, the science would indicate this.
I am happy to be proven wrong in this. All it would take is a few recent (in the last 20 years) research papers supporting the idea that sugar is a preferred source of inorganic carbon in the nitrogen cycle in aquatic environments. I can also say I have had disccussions with Ph.D. microrbiologists on this topic and none have ever mentioned the use of sugar for cycling.
I can cycle a tank for a full fish load without using plants in between a week and maybe as nucg as 10 days, I do not require sugar for this, i just need a source of seed bacteria. I can get this from either one of two bottled bacteria which contain the needed strains of live bacteria or from my existing 20 tanks. I am getting ready to cycle filters for 6 -8 summer tanks in a bio-farm. I will also do this in a similar period of time. Here is what I will use:
1, A bottle of Dr. Tim's One and Only plus some filters from ,y other tanks swished out in the biofarm tank.
2. Ammonium chloride I will mix myself using the powdered form on RO/DI water.
3. A bag of crushed coral to insure and adequate supply of carbonates.
4. Air powered Poret filters are being ccyled and the bubbl;es breaking the surface will foster gas exchange and provide needed oxygen as well as CO2 which the bacteria will also use as a source of inorganic carbon.
5. A heater to keep the water temp in the range of 82F
6. A source for sugar (and cream) for my morning coffee while I test ammonia levels in the bio-farm to determine how much ammonia to add for that day.
Incidentally, in the above cycling process I only test for ammonia. I do not need to test the rest. The reason is simple. My seeding means I am adding ammonia bacteria and nitrite bacteria in balance. There are sufficient quantities of of both to process X amount of ammonia to nitrate. The lag between the time it takes for the nitrite ones to double compared to the ammonia ones will not be an issue because it will correct in a matter of hours. In a normal fishless cycle the two oxidizers develop sequntially which results in ammonia zeroing out before all the needed nitrite ones get established. So nitrite readings can get sky high. This does not happen when one properly seeds these at the outset.
One comment about the 11 weeks to cycle a sump. Not in my world, a week or two max if done the most effective way. There are tricks to cycling filters for a few 100 gallons of water in a tank which only holds 30 gallons. One of these is to start with 3 ppm and increase the concentration almost daily. Under optimal conditions the ammonia bacteria can double in about 8 hours and the niitrite ones in about 11. The more seed bacteria (of the right type) at the start, the sooner I get to the desitred level without stalling things due to either jhigh ammonia or nitrite levels from over dosing too soon.
Maybe I should run a thread on this site documenting the set up of the bio-farm and how it progresses to cycled filters? I need to get cycled filters for 3x20L, 2x10 and 1 or 2x40b (or between 120 and 160 gals and these tanks will all hold the maximum possible number of fish. This means they will be somewhat overstocked. These tanks are for holding plecos taken from breeding and grow tanks to be sold and which must be photographed and kept segregated until they go out. As of now I
I would not do any of what is in the above post. For one consider this when being told one must use cane sugar. Beet sugar is essentially identical. But don't take my word for it:
from https://www.britannica.com/story/whats-the-difference-between-cane-sugar-and-beet-sugar
Next, if one hunts down research papers you will find what is described in the post above involves such a twisting of conditions that it is silly to do this in hobby tanks. The nitrifying bacteris need and inorganic carbon source. There are two primary sources for this in tanks. The most obvious is CO2. In order to do the research into the use of of fructose (not sucrose), this is what must be done:
from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC262722/
However, the second major source of inorganic carbon in tanks is carbonates and bicarbonates. These are what make KH for the most part. For the nitrosomas in the experiment to use fructose they had to be deprived of a preferred source of carbon.
If you want to cycle a tank quickly get a bacteria product which contained the right strains of ammonia and nitrite oxidizers. Feed them ammonia, make sure the water surface is agitated to foster gas exchange and make sure the KH does not start to drop too low. One can add carbonates/bicarbonates in several effective ways- crushed coral, calcium carbonate, sodium bicarbonate etc.
Over the years I have bookmarked dozens of papers relating to nitrifying bacteria in aquatic and other systems. I have never seen any of them mention cane sugar/fructose/sucrose for anything.
Finally, nature always works things out in pretty specific ways. The bacteria involved with the nitrogen cycle in tanks have been around for a very long time. If "sugar" were essential or a preferred and an effective way for them to function and survive, the science would indicate this.
I am happy to be proven wrong in this. All it would take is a few recent (in the last 20 years) research papers supporting the idea that sugar is a preferred source of inorganic carbon in the nitrogen cycle in aquatic environments. I can also say I have had disccussions with Ph.D. microrbiologists on this topic and none have ever mentioned the use of sugar for cycling.
I can cycle a tank for a full fish load without using plants in between a week and maybe as nucg as 10 days, I do not require sugar for this, i just need a source of seed bacteria. I can get this from either one of two bottled bacteria which contain the needed strains of live bacteria or from my existing 20 tanks. I am getting ready to cycle filters for 6 -8 summer tanks in a bio-farm. I will also do this in a similar period of time. Here is what I will use:
1, A bottle of Dr. Tim's One and Only plus some filters from ,y other tanks swished out in the biofarm tank.
2. Ammonium chloride I will mix myself using the powdered form on RO/DI water.
3. A bag of crushed coral to insure and adequate supply of carbonates.
4. Air powered Poret filters are being ccyled and the bubbl;es breaking the surface will foster gas exchange and provide needed oxygen as well as CO2 which the bacteria will also use as a source of inorganic carbon.
5. A heater to keep the water temp in the range of 82F
6. A source for sugar (and cream) for my morning coffee while I test ammonia levels in the bio-farm to determine how much ammonia to add for that day.
Incidentally, in the above cycling process I only test for ammonia. I do not need to test the rest. The reason is simple. My seeding means I am adding ammonia bacteria and nitrite bacteria in balance. There are sufficient quantities of of both to process X amount of ammonia to nitrate. The lag between the time it takes for the nitrite ones to double compared to the ammonia ones will not be an issue because it will correct in a matter of hours. In a normal fishless cycle the two oxidizers develop sequntially which results in ammonia zeroing out before all the needed nitrite ones get established. So nitrite readings can get sky high. This does not happen when one properly seeds these at the outset.
One comment about the 11 weeks to cycle a sump. Not in my world, a week or two max if done the most effective way. There are tricks to cycling filters for a few 100 gallons of water in a tank which only holds 30 gallons. One of these is to start with 3 ppm and increase the concentration almost daily. Under optimal conditions the ammonia bacteria can double in about 8 hours and the niitrite ones in about 11. The more seed bacteria (of the right type) at the start, the sooner I get to the desitred level without stalling things due to either jhigh ammonia or nitrite levels from over dosing too soon.
Maybe I should run a thread on this site documenting the set up of the bio-farm and how it progresses to cycled filters? I need to get cycled filters for 3x20L, 2x10 and 1 or 2x40b (or between 120 and 160 gals and these tanks will all hold the maximum possible number of fish. This means they will be somewhat overstocked. These tanks are for holding plecos taken from breeding and grow tanks to be sold and which must be photographed and kept segregated until they go out. As of now I
The oracle has spoken. Um, perhaps it has not occurred to you that no one is being forced to do anything. The purpose of this forum is to provide solutions for fellow aquarists. I reported a tactic that worked well for me. You know, whenever I read a post such as yours, excessively voluminous and filled with such indignation, I always ask myself if the author isn’t just using this as an opportunity to seek attention and recognition. Trust me, the last thing in the world you want is to be “proven wrong.”
B
brianp
I used to use vodka to euthanize fw fish before I learned better. I never put any sugar into any fresh water tank. But so far I have only cycled about 100 fw tanks and a similar number of filters. So I may not have a clue yet. Nor have I ever read anything suggesting the use of sugar in any form in a freshwater tank prior to your post. I have heard of these things being used in sw. But that is a different story and if was related to denitrification. I would really be grateful if you could provide me with some links to respected sites or scientific papers which suggest the use of sugar in fresh water tanks for cycling. While I could not find this sort of information, I assume you have. Thanks in advance for your help with this.
Here is the information on SeaChem's site they do not push out there though. http://www.seachem.com/Library/SeaGrams/Biofiltration.pdf
They got the nitrite oxidizers wrong. but that was the old prevailing view prior to the work of Dr. Timothy Hovanec et. al. The nitrite oxidizers in tanks are actually Nitrospira. Nitrospira-Like Bacteria Associated with Nitrite Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria (This has been cited in at least 247 other papers.)
Here is the paper on the discovery of the fresh water ammonia oxidizing bacteria:
Burrell PC, Phalen CM, Hovanec TA. Identification of bacteria responsible for ammonia oxidation in freshwater aquaria. Appl Environ Microbiol. 2001;67(12):5791-5800. doi:10.1128/AEM.67.12.5791-5800.2001
Abstract
Culture enrichments and culture-independent molecular methods were employed to identify and confirm the presence of novel ammonia-oxidizing bacteria (AOB) in nitrifying freshwater aquaria. Reactors were seeded with biomass from freshwater nitrifying systems and enriched for AOB under various conditions of ammonia concentration. Surveys of cloned rRNA genes from the enrichments revealed four major strains of AOB which were phylogenetically related to the Nitrosomonas marina cluster, the Nitrosospira cluster, or the Nitrosomonas europaea-Nitrosococcus mobilis cluster of the β subdivision of the class Proteobacteria. Ammonia concentration in the reactors determined which AOB strain dominated in an enrichment. Oligonucleotide probes and PCR primer sets specific for the four AOB strains were developed and used to confirm the presence of the AOB strains in the enrichments. Enrichments of the AOB strains were added to newly established aquaria to determine their ability to accelerate the establishment of ammonia oxidation. Enrichments containing the Nitrosomonas marina-like AOB strain were most efficient at accelerating ammonia oxidation in newly established aquaria. Furthermore, if the Nitrosomonas marina-like AOB strain was present in the original enrichment, even one with other AOB, only the Nitrosomonas marina-like AOB strain was present in aquaria after nitrification was established. Nitrosomonas marina-like AOB were 2% or less of the cells detected by fluorescence in situ hybridization analysis in aquaria in which nitrification was well established.
Full paper here https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC93373/ (It has been cited in at least 137 other papers.) One key line is the one where it says even when other bacteria were seeded, in the end they were not still present.
I used to use vodka to euthanize fw fish before I learned better. I never put any sugar into any fresh water tank. But so far I have only cycled about 100 fw tanks and a similar number of filters. So I may not have a clue yet. Nor have I ever read anything suggesting the use of sugar in any form in a freshwater tank prior to your post. I have heard of these things being used in sw. But that is a different story and if was related to denitrification. I would really be grateful if you could provide me with some links to respected sites or scientific papers which suggest the use of sugar in fresh water tanks for cycling. While I could not find this sort of information, I assume you have. Thanks in advance for your help with this.
Here is the information on SeaChem's site they do not push out there though. http://www.seachem.com/Library/SeaGrams/Biofiltration.pdf
They got the nitrite oxidizers wrong. but that was the old prevailing view prior to the work of Dr. Timothy Hovanec et. al. The nitrite oxidizers in tanks are actually Nitrospira. Nitrospira-Like Bacteria Associated with Nitrite Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria (This has been cited in at least 247 other papers.)
Here is the paper on the discovery of the fresh water ammonia oxidizing bacteria:
Burrell PC, Phalen CM, Hovanec TA. Identification of bacteria responsible for ammonia oxidation in freshwater aquaria. Appl Environ Microbiol. 2001;67(12):5791-5800. doi:10.1128/AEM.67.12.5791-5800.2001
Abstract
Culture enrichments and culture-independent molecular methods were employed to identify and confirm the presence of novel ammonia-oxidizing bacteria (AOB) in nitrifying freshwater aquaria. Reactors were seeded with biomass from freshwater nitrifying systems and enriched for AOB under various conditions of ammonia concentration. Surveys of cloned rRNA genes from the enrichments revealed four major strains of AOB which were phylogenetically related to the Nitrosomonas marina cluster, the Nitrosospira cluster, or the Nitrosomonas europaea-Nitrosococcus mobilis cluster of the β subdivision of the class Proteobacteria. Ammonia concentration in the reactors determined which AOB strain dominated in an enrichment. Oligonucleotide probes and PCR primer sets specific for the four AOB strains were developed and used to confirm the presence of the AOB strains in the enrichments. Enrichments of the AOB strains were added to newly established aquaria to determine their ability to accelerate the establishment of ammonia oxidation. Enrichments containing the Nitrosomonas marina-like AOB strain were most efficient at accelerating ammonia oxidation in newly established aquaria. Furthermore, if the Nitrosomonas marina-like AOB strain was present in the original enrichment, even one with other AOB, only the Nitrosomonas marina-like AOB strain was present in aquaria after nitrification was established. Nitrosomonas marina-like AOB were 2% or less of the cells detected by fluorescence in situ hybridization analysis in aquaria in which nitrification was well established.
Full paper here https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC93373/ (It has been cited in at least 137 other papers.) One key line is the one where it says even when other bacteria were seeded, in the end they were not still present.
Old thread but like myself right now,, someone will be doing searches and stumble across this topic. I too waited and waited using the fish less cycling concept and after a month just went F_it and just tossed livestock in it (after removing the 2ppm ammonia). Everything I read people claiming a cycled tank in 2wks which is complete and utter BS.
I fishless cycled my most recent tank in just over two weeks. The tank before that, four days.
The issue is not that fishless cycling does not work, or can't be done quickly. The issue is that there is a lot of misinformation on the web that causes one to not be able to cycle their tanks properly via the fishless method.
There's a big difference between cycling a tank...which implies that you started from sterile scratch, and fostered the growth of the necessay bacteria to perform the oxidation of ammonia to nitrite and then nitrate...and setting up a cycled tank using materials from another established tank.
If you did it the second way...what took you so long?
If you did it the hard way, from scratch...I think you owe the world a better explanation of this miracle than you have offered. How about correcting some of that rampant misinformation you mentioned, and then leading us into the light? Enough with the teasers...
If you did it the second way...what took you so long?
If you did it the hard way, from scratch...I think you owe the world a better explanation of this miracle than you have offered. How about correcting some of that rampant misinformation you mentioned, and then leading us into the light? Enough with the teasers...
