Your weather would prevent tropical species from gaining a foot hold in CO. We are not so lucky here in Florida. The weather in the southern portion of the state is very amenable to tropical and marine species.
FL wants to whitelist fish and destroy aquarium trade
- Thread starter aussieman57
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not at all the same... and its glaringly obvious
Well, they promise different things. Most of which they never deliver. In the end they are all a bunch of corrupt, power hungry parasites. I look at myself as an independent. The Federal Gov't was never meant to be an all reaching all powerful entity that controls the entire populace. I wish people would just learn to get along.
It’s hard to “just get along” when one side is trying to roll the country back to pre-women's suffrage era and the other is taking baby steps towards the future when it should be leaping.
And ppl saying they are the same is a cop out.
your state has a huge gun problem, shootings all the time. It’s going the wrong direction.
And ppl saying they are the same is a cop out.
your state has a huge gun problem, shootings all the time. It’s going the wrong direction.
Honestly, that doesn't make any sense.
The Florida Legislature is not going to pass (and the Governor is not going to sign) a law that places the wants of so-called radical environmentalists over jobs, the pet industry/lobby and pet-keeping constituents.
Ask yourself why the pet lobby announces a breathless "all-hands-on-deck, they're-going-to-take-your-pets" campaign every few months. Is it because they really believe that fish and reptiles (and cats and dogs!!) are going to be outlawed (because, you know, PETA runs Florida and the world!!!)... or is it because the pet industry doesn't want *any* oversight?
Florida is awash in exotics that have basically destroyed a lot of the native flora and fauna. What is the Pet Lobby doing to address the problems that it has caused (and/or contributed) and what can be done to reduce the harm going forward? In other words, what do *sensible* rules look like?
The Florida Legislature is not going to pass (and the Governor is not going to sign) a law that places the wants of so-called radical environmentalists over jobs, the pet industry/lobby and pet-keeping constituents.
Ask yourself why the pet lobby announces a breathless "all-hands-on-deck, they're-going-to-take-your-pets" campaign every few months. Is it because they really believe that fish and reptiles (and cats and dogs!!) are going to be outlawed (because, you know, PETA runs Florida and the world!!!)... or is it because the pet industry doesn't want *any* oversight?
Florida is awash in exotics that have basically destroyed a lot of the native flora and fauna. What is the Pet Lobby doing to address the problems that it has caused (and/or contributed) and what can be done to reduce the harm going forward? In other words, what do *sensible* rules look like?
just now, as I am reading this post, I am l looking outside and watching a 4 foot invasive iguana eating my I my orchid. Seeing this is a harsh reminder of how some exotic hobbyists have ruined our local Florida ecosystem.
I was going to confront the iguana, but considering this is Florida, the iguana is probably packing a gun
I was going to confront the iguana, but considering this is Florida, the iguana is probably packing a gun
I want to address a lot of things here. First contrary to what
D
dogofwar
said the Florida legislature has no part in the process and the governor does not sign this rule. FWC can do whatever they want. They are appointed by the governor and all of the commissioners are land developers. They made donations to the governor's campaign and became the head of the most powerful organization in the state. One that coincidentally has the most regulatory authority over things that are important to developers. Like gopher tortoise relocation and burrowing owl habitat. FWC law enforcement answers to almost no one. They do have an office of Inspector General. The head of that office just resigned after having an affair with the wife of an officer he was investigating. It sounds like she was using the IG to try to get her husband in trouble so she could win a custody battle that she was planning. Top state investigator resigns amid probe over conflict of interest – Broward.US
The reason for this whitelist is herps. Commissioner Barreto is upset about pythons in the everglades, and big scary animals that keep people from wanting to stay in his hotels. Coincidentally he also sued the state to be allowed to dredge the Indian river lagoon to build more land so he could build more buildings Florida wildlife chair criticized for lagoon development moves (palmbeachpost.com) . The reptile industry requested Burmese pythons and tegus be put on the conditional species list for years and were ignored. That would have kept them out of the hands of the public. The commission basically eliminated the conditional species list for reptiles and changed everything from conditional to prohibited. There was no grandfathering. People who built their businesses on exporting the animals out of the state got crushed. That is the inciting incident for the Holy Thursday Massacre.
For those like D dogofwar accusing the pet lobby of drumming this up, I think you are mistaken as to what is really at stake here. If you have been at the Nonnative Species Technical Assistance Group meetings, you would have watched how this has progressed. Industry presented many solutions at the TAG meetings. It was discussed to expand the tier structure FWC currently has. Many species were brought up to add to the conditional and prohibited list.
pwmin
Colorado's whitelist was brought up. By the logic of CO's whitelist Florida fish keepers would only be keeping cold-water fish and very few herps. Collectively TAG members have donated over 2200 manhours of their time to be a part of this process over the last 18 months. I encourage all of you who can to come to the commission meeting and be part of the solution. Also come to the next TAG meeting. Watch people trying to make an impact. Watch the industry make suggestions and make public comments. Notice that HSUS has a seat at the table. The next one is in Tampa in June. I think the 13th and 14th.
As for the exotics that are established there are very few new species. Iguanas have been here longer than many of the people on this forum have been on this planet. Burms could have been prevented with a conditional listing earlier. You ask what sensible regulations look like it is not that complicated. Doing risk assessments on species that are likely to be an issue and place them on the conditional or prohibited species list. Best management practices are another good move. In 2000 the Aquaculture BMPs became mandatory and are regulated by the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services (FDACS) Division of Aquaculture. Since then, no conditional or prohibited species have been established in Florida through Aquaculture. The reptile industry probably needs a Division of Herpetoculture with similar BMPs. Also remember that FWC who is pushing how terrible the nonnative situation has become, is still protecting nonnative peacock bass as a gamefish. There are size and bag limits to protect this nonnative species that has pushed into the everglades. They are concerned if we allow people to take as many as they want the fish will disappear. However, if a new species of peacock bass like kelberi gets established the story will be ornamental fish keepers are irresponsible.
To be clear there are allegedly two options on the table. Option 1 is that if something is in trade it can stay in trade in Florida and will be on the whitelist. We will see if that holds true. Industry has put forward a list of about 30,000 species across all taxa that have been in trade and are believed to be in possession. They were basically given a month to make that list so there may be omissions. If that is rejected and they say only species that you have receipts for in the last 12 months, all of those ALA, AKA, and CARES fish hobbyists like
aussieman57
are working with would be illegal to bring into Florida. If you are a hobbyist who moves to Florida and brings one of these fish in, you would be guilty of illegal importation of these species. You will be labeled as a wildlife trafficker like these guys were labeled poachers for not having the receipt for clearly purchased IQF lobsters. Wildlife officers face criticism over citation for 71 lobster tails (usatoday.com)
Option 2 says nothing that hasn't already been evaluated by FWC would be allowed on the whitelist. There are less than 250 species evaluated and that includes the prohibited and conditional list. The other animals are Class1 and Class2 wildlife very few people have the money to keep these animals. Class I Wildlife | FWC (myfwc.com) Class II Wildlife | FWC (myfwc.com)
For destroying the tropical fish industry, we are talking about $172 million in sales. UF survey: Florida tropical fish farmers bring state $172 million in sales - News (ufl.edu) Many of these farms have been encroached upon by suburban development. I think a lot of people would be happy to crush those businesses, make the farmer sell under duress and turn that into more real estate. A good example of this encroachment is Consolidated Fish Farm. You should be checking out their online store by the way. They have been surrounded by development. That parcel north of them is being rezoned for multifamily housing. For now, Consolidated is taking advantage of it by opening up retail, but other farms have been harassed into moving before, and as the value of that land keeps going up someone is going to want it. Another farmer has had a lot of development around him. When he went to the zoning meeting the developer was asked if he was finished in the area. He said, there is one more plot we are either going to buy or take, but that should be the end. Below consolidated is the old Carters Fish Hatchery.
As for the other political commentary here, I thought that was against the rules of the forum, but maybe a moderator like
duanes
can clarify. I am sure we all have a lot of opinions on a lot of topics, and we could make this forum intolerable in a hurry. I personally enjoy that this is a place I can come and just talk about fish.
The reason for this whitelist is herps. Commissioner Barreto is upset about pythons in the everglades, and big scary animals that keep people from wanting to stay in his hotels. Coincidentally he also sued the state to be allowed to dredge the Indian river lagoon to build more land so he could build more buildings Florida wildlife chair criticized for lagoon development moves (palmbeachpost.com) . The reptile industry requested Burmese pythons and tegus be put on the conditional species list for years and were ignored. That would have kept them out of the hands of the public. The commission basically eliminated the conditional species list for reptiles and changed everything from conditional to prohibited. There was no grandfathering. People who built their businesses on exporting the animals out of the state got crushed. That is the inciting incident for the Holy Thursday Massacre.
For those like D dogofwar accusing the pet lobby of drumming this up, I think you are mistaken as to what is really at stake here. If you have been at the Nonnative Species Technical Assistance Group meetings, you would have watched how this has progressed. Industry presented many solutions at the TAG meetings. It was discussed to expand the tier structure FWC currently has. Many species were brought up to add to the conditional and prohibited list.
pwmin
Colorado's whitelist was brought up. By the logic of CO's whitelist Florida fish keepers would only be keeping cold-water fish and very few herps. Collectively TAG members have donated over 2200 manhours of their time to be a part of this process over the last 18 months. I encourage all of you who can to come to the commission meeting and be part of the solution. Also come to the next TAG meeting. Watch people trying to make an impact. Watch the industry make suggestions and make public comments. Notice that HSUS has a seat at the table. The next one is in Tampa in June. I think the 13th and 14th.As for the exotics that are established there are very few new species. Iguanas have been here longer than many of the people on this forum have been on this planet. Burms could have been prevented with a conditional listing earlier. You ask what sensible regulations look like it is not that complicated. Doing risk assessments on species that are likely to be an issue and place them on the conditional or prohibited species list. Best management practices are another good move. In 2000 the Aquaculture BMPs became mandatory and are regulated by the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services (FDACS) Division of Aquaculture. Since then, no conditional or prohibited species have been established in Florida through Aquaculture. The reptile industry probably needs a Division of Herpetoculture with similar BMPs. Also remember that FWC who is pushing how terrible the nonnative situation has become, is still protecting nonnative peacock bass as a gamefish. There are size and bag limits to protect this nonnative species that has pushed into the everglades. They are concerned if we allow people to take as many as they want the fish will disappear. However, if a new species of peacock bass like kelberi gets established the story will be ornamental fish keepers are irresponsible.
To be clear there are allegedly two options on the table. Option 1 is that if something is in trade it can stay in trade in Florida and will be on the whitelist. We will see if that holds true. Industry has put forward a list of about 30,000 species across all taxa that have been in trade and are believed to be in possession. They were basically given a month to make that list so there may be omissions. If that is rejected and they say only species that you have receipts for in the last 12 months, all of those ALA, AKA, and CARES fish hobbyists like
aussieman57
are working with would be illegal to bring into Florida. If you are a hobbyist who moves to Florida and brings one of these fish in, you would be guilty of illegal importation of these species. You will be labeled as a wildlife trafficker like these guys were labeled poachers for not having the receipt for clearly purchased IQF lobsters. Wildlife officers face criticism over citation for 71 lobster tails (usatoday.com) Option 2 says nothing that hasn't already been evaluated by FWC would be allowed on the whitelist. There are less than 250 species evaluated and that includes the prohibited and conditional list. The other animals are Class1 and Class2 wildlife very few people have the money to keep these animals. Class I Wildlife | FWC (myfwc.com) Class II Wildlife | FWC (myfwc.com)
For destroying the tropical fish industry, we are talking about $172 million in sales. UF survey: Florida tropical fish farmers bring state $172 million in sales - News (ufl.edu) Many of these farms have been encroached upon by suburban development. I think a lot of people would be happy to crush those businesses, make the farmer sell under duress and turn that into more real estate. A good example of this encroachment is Consolidated Fish Farm. You should be checking out their online store by the way. They have been surrounded by development. That parcel north of them is being rezoned for multifamily housing. For now, Consolidated is taking advantage of it by opening up retail, but other farms have been harassed into moving before, and as the value of that land keeps going up someone is going to want it. Another farmer has had a lot of development around him. When he went to the zoning meeting the developer was asked if he was finished in the area. He said, there is one more plot we are either going to buy or take, but that should be the end. Below consolidated is the old Carters Fish Hatchery.
As for the other political commentary here, I thought that was against the rules of the forum, but maybe a moderator like
duanes
can clarify. I am sure we all have a lot of opinions on a lot of topics, and we could make this forum intolerable in a hurry. I personally enjoy that this is a place I can come and just talk about fish. Appreciate the thoughtful response.
Boiling your post down, it seems that you're saying that this is basically a ploy by developers to open more land for development. Draconian Industry-killing and pet-owner-alienating executive rules seem like a bad way to get there - both practically and politically.
Any forward movement of such a proposed rule would, in my estimation, result in a bunch of public comments and blowback from ordinary citizens on the Florida FWS and the Governor who appointed its Director... great start for a Presidential campaign, right?!
Forward movement of such a proposed rule would also likely result in action in the Florida Legislature to overrule the executive action. The Legislators representing the areas that would be most impacted by such a draconian rule - businesses and jobs - would have great incentives to put forth such bills.
This still just doesn't make any sense to me. Florida is, of course, rife with corruption, stupidity and nonsense. And it's leadership isn't beyond personal vendettas (like attacking the Golden Mouse that's one of the largest employers and revenue generators in the state). But vast government overreach without much upside (other than, I guess, giving developers what they want)? I don't get it
Boiling your post down, it seems that you're saying that this is basically a ploy by developers to open more land for development. Draconian Industry-killing and pet-owner-alienating executive rules seem like a bad way to get there - both practically and politically.
Any forward movement of such a proposed rule would, in my estimation, result in a bunch of public comments and blowback from ordinary citizens on the Florida FWS and the Governor who appointed its Director... great start for a Presidential campaign, right?!
Forward movement of such a proposed rule would also likely result in action in the Florida Legislature to overrule the executive action. The Legislators representing the areas that would be most impacted by such a draconian rule - businesses and jobs - would have great incentives to put forth such bills.
This still just doesn't make any sense to me. Florida is, of course, rife with corruption, stupidity and nonsense. And it's leadership isn't beyond personal vendettas (like attacking the Golden Mouse that's one of the largest employers and revenue generators in the state). But vast government overreach without much upside (other than, I guess, giving developers what they want)? I don't get it
I agree, it doesn't really make sense logistically. For one, how are they going to regulate the hundreds of thousands of people who already have whitelist banned species, and what are they going to do with the animals if they do manage to get people to give them all up? Then again it isn't unheard of for peta to just kill surrendered animals. But that said it's an unethical and not very logical proposition.
I am not saying the goal is to take that land. I think the big goal is to make it look like they are defending the environment and distract the public from the damage their industry causes. At the end of the day local governments will be happiest to see the farms removed. They will be replaced with houses or commercial properties that will pay more in taxes. There is almost zero chance the governor or legislature even tries to step in to help. These are people who contributed hundreds of thousands of dollars to the governor's campaign. If this is something they want he is going to let it go to keep the money rolling.
You are talking about destroying mostly very small businesses run by people with very little political power. While tropical fish farming is culturally important to those with long ties to central Florida and a small part of southeast Florida, less than 1/3 of the state's population was born in Florida. They have very little connection to that culture. As quickly as many were on here to dump on the state of Florida, that doesn't stop when you move here. I have heard many new residents talk about how great Florida would be if they could remove Floridians. Floridians are often called lazy or stupid. These farmers are simply seen as more of the people who are in the way of Florida's "progress".
As for massive public outcry it will be balanced by massive public support from animal rights activist who cheer any opportunity to keep animals from being owned by people. Look at what has happened with CITES. Now there is a push to list every North American turtle on CITES. Many of those like the Florida softshell are not in short supply or threatened in any way. HSUS, Audobon Society, and the former director of Big Cat Rescue are all present on the Technical Assistance Group. They all supported this measure and will have their members present on Thursday.
FWC's biggest power is in controlling the borders.
Hybridfish7
is right they probably won't round up people's animals certainly not in any massive operation, but they can make it impossible to replace them. They will drive pet owners underground and force them to live in fear. They can destroy the industry by depriving it of the imported fish that fly alongside the farm raised fish. When Florida's customers have to start importing fish on their own, they probably won't keep paying freight just to get the Florida farm raised products. This could also be the end of independent retail in Florida. Whatever the big box stores want will probably be whitelisted. The myriad of low volume species that make independent retail fun could disappear.
I have put the link to the agenda below. The new rules are on there. Option 1 says animals that can be proven in trade with receipts will be on the whitelist. This will exclude all of the hobbyist traded species. Option 2 says only species evaluated by FWC that is a very short list. Show up Thursday and be part of the solution. You need to be there by 7:30 to get on the list of commenters.
May 2023 | FWC (myfwc.com)
You are talking about destroying mostly very small businesses run by people with very little political power. While tropical fish farming is culturally important to those with long ties to central Florida and a small part of southeast Florida, less than 1/3 of the state's population was born in Florida. They have very little connection to that culture. As quickly as many were on here to dump on the state of Florida, that doesn't stop when you move here. I have heard many new residents talk about how great Florida would be if they could remove Floridians. Floridians are often called lazy or stupid. These farmers are simply seen as more of the people who are in the way of Florida's "progress".
As for massive public outcry it will be balanced by massive public support from animal rights activist who cheer any opportunity to keep animals from being owned by people. Look at what has happened with CITES. Now there is a push to list every North American turtle on CITES. Many of those like the Florida softshell are not in short supply or threatened in any way. HSUS, Audobon Society, and the former director of Big Cat Rescue are all present on the Technical Assistance Group. They all supported this measure and will have their members present on Thursday.
FWC's biggest power is in controlling the borders.
Hybridfish7
is right they probably won't round up people's animals certainly not in any massive operation, but they can make it impossible to replace them. They will drive pet owners underground and force them to live in fear. They can destroy the industry by depriving it of the imported fish that fly alongside the farm raised fish. When Florida's customers have to start importing fish on their own, they probably won't keep paying freight just to get the Florida farm raised products. This could also be the end of independent retail in Florida. Whatever the big box stores want will probably be whitelisted. The myriad of low volume species that make independent retail fun could disappear. I have put the link to the agenda below. The new rules are on there. Option 1 says animals that can be proven in trade with receipts will be on the whitelist. This will exclude all of the hobbyist traded species. Option 2 says only species evaluated by FWC that is a very short list. Show up Thursday and be part of the solution. You need to be there by 7:30 to get on the list of commenters.
May 2023 | FWC (myfwc.com)
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