Flowerhorn Kok problem
- Thread starter TexanMFKer
- Start date
If I corrected my statement why are are you trolling my older statement and for your question only thing I can guess is that it would be a dominants thing now if your answer you were looking for was what it is used for like a bulls hump being used for balance when breeding I havent got a clue fill me in
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Its not fatty tissue but protein. Its basically tissue or muscle so you might wonder why I ask you if you know this. Knowing that its muscle and not fat clears up the issue of over feeding or feeding foods high in protein. No matter how much your fh gets fed or how much protein you make it consume it will not alter the kok size rather than make the fish fat from the skin out.
Fish keep their fat inbetween their skin and tissue. So sure make the fh fat by packing tons of constipating protein and it will increase the kok size ever so slightly yet easily take a fifth of its life away. (Its an achievement if they live 5 years now days because of diets like these)
So to a conclusion we have determined that the kok is made up of tissue. Common sense dictates the following. If its a muscle and the fh cannot strengthen it by working it out what other possibility are there? We'll split it into two groups.
-genetics (permanent)
-edema (temporary)
Why does it have a kok? It was bred to have a kok, simple as that. The genetics for the trait of having a kok was just simply achieved through breeding god knows what.
Edema, is due to hormones during breeding or during spawning. The hump comes and once its a parent, the hump goes away.
Knowing this it cannot be fat and it must be tissue, the tissue can be inflamed with water where the phrase water kok comes from because its mainly water and tissue. Fat plays a horribly small part in it. Males can have their hump completely reduced within a 24 hour period and thats impossible if its fat.
So if you could see its purely genetics that dictates the kok size when the environment is supporting the growth of the kok, not the "support" as in high protein foods or even hormones which help to only a minimal degree. The genetics simply must be there if you want to have any sort of kok what so ever. The care given is minimal compared to the genetics. Its about 90% genetics and 10% care given from experts and even my personal experiences.
If you question anything I have said I will gladly post cites of studies by individuals with Ph D.'s from reputable schools such as Berkeley.
Fish keep their fat inbetween their skin and tissue. So sure make the fh fat by packing tons of constipating protein and it will increase the kok size ever so slightly yet easily take a fifth of its life away. (Its an achievement if they live 5 years now days because of diets like these)
So to a conclusion we have determined that the kok is made up of tissue. Common sense dictates the following. If its a muscle and the fh cannot strengthen it by working it out what other possibility are there? We'll split it into two groups.
-genetics (permanent)
-edema (temporary)
Why does it have a kok? It was bred to have a kok, simple as that. The genetics for the trait of having a kok was just simply achieved through breeding god knows what.
Edema, is due to hormones during breeding or during spawning. The hump comes and once its a parent, the hump goes away.
Knowing this it cannot be fat and it must be tissue, the tissue can be inflamed with water where the phrase water kok comes from because its mainly water and tissue. Fat plays a horribly small part in it. Males can have their hump completely reduced within a 24 hour period and thats impossible if its fat.
So if you could see its purely genetics that dictates the kok size when the environment is supporting the growth of the kok, not the "support" as in high protein foods or even hormones which help to only a minimal degree. The genetics simply must be there if you want to have any sort of kok what so ever. The care given is minimal compared to the genetics. Its about 90% genetics and 10% care given from experts and even my personal experiences.
If you question anything I have said I will gladly post cites of studies by individuals with Ph D.'s from reputable schools such as Berkeley.
Ok im digging the detailed statement and would love for you to post some links but I have one question if protien doesn't affect the the kok and protien does in fact support the growth of just about every part of the body from muscle to skin but you say has no part in it except for constipation then why was my thai silk's kok affected when I switched him from omega one with 38% protien to prime reef with 60.7% protien and why do most flowerhorn specialized foods for kok size concentrate mainly on protein content
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There's a number of things to cover here, i'll just list it out so we don't get too confused. Just to state I never said protein doesnt help kok growth but more that its minimal.
1.)Why doesnt protein affect the kok.
2.)Why your fh kok has gotten bigger.
3.)Why most fh foods specialize in protein.
1.)Why doesnt protein affect the kok.
If you do large water change that's more than half the volume of the tank you will notice your fh's kok shrink. If you want to see it even more, make sure the water added is a bit cooler as in the tanks temp is 84 degrees add 79 degree water. The kok is mainly consistent with water and through osmosis your fh's kok will shrink as it reaches a equilibrium with the new environment. Of course your fh's kok will eventually return to the same size within a reasonable amount of time.
2.)Why your fh kok has gotten bigger.
Do you personally have any pictures of it? Its quite devising to the owners eyes. I myself find myself adding salt into the tank and standing back and thinking "wow that salt makes a big difference, look at how happy they are!" yet we all know if your tank is properly set up salt doesn't aid the fish unless there are problems as healing/sick fish or treating for some disease. I suspect that you in fact are feeding higher protein foods as you stated while the fh is just growing, so it just looks like a big difference to you while to others its just the fh's growth. At 40% protein it's surely sufficient in aiding the fh's development. If the fh is full grown as in around 12 inches and then you move to a high protein diet and there is kok growths, that would be more resonable as the kok growth would be centralized to the higher protein diet. Why has your fh kok grown, I dont know, there's too many variables to determine but the leading variable is a constant which peaks, growth.
3.)Why most fh foods specialize in protein.
One of my favorite questions, if you google what a fh's kok is made out of, then you get the answer fat which is wrong. Here is a fh who died of old age and then the owner decided to see whats the kok is made out of. Caution its a bit graphic.
If a person wants to bulk up, what does he eat? Protein, not for muscle growth as many people think but for the calorie content as most protien shakes contain huge amounts of calories needed to bulk up. Same concept with fish but its totally wrong as fish aren't humans and their bodies dont work as ours. But with this knowledge, people all flock to high protein content as a secrete weapon that will make their fh's kok grow. Its just a marketing ploy to the uneducated. The higher end foods all have around 40% protein content as that is more than a fish needs and keeps them healthy such as omega, nls, and even tetra color.
Humans and fish and all living organisms do have one thing thats similar though, we can only take so much. Scientists say within 24 hours a average human body can only absorb 20-35 grams of protein and the rest falls out when you go to the bath room, but even scientists dont know the exact amount but they all agree that the body can only consume so much protein before it becomes useless. Fish do the exact same thing, their bodies consume as much as they can and then the rest goes to waste right into their poop.
If I consume 300 grams of protein a day then it wont hurt me but it wont aid in my muscle development as my daily amount I can consume is already taken care of. If I sit around and and eat 300 grams of protein 250 grams goes down the toilet and the 50 grams my body consumes will in aid in my body functions so lets say 35 grams goes to be made into fat because I just sat around all day. I dont get bigger because of protien but bigger from the calories that I consume. Your body can consume a lot more calories than protein. If you can tell from what I'm saying, I used to work out avidly. The 40% protein fed is basically a 60 gram protein shake and the 60% protein fed is basically a 80 gram protein shake. You get the same results.
Here are some sources I think you should read about.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0016648075901367
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/v...pIU6Q#search="midas cichlid nicaragua barlow"
These sources are from a member named RD., which I have enjoyed greatly from reading. Probably one of the most knowledgeable individual in the hobby.
Makes since yeah you can tell thats muscle tissue not fat I've seen that photo before somewhere but it didn't register when you asked the question I appreciate the information you have post im sure it will be usefull for everyone and about the protien consumption I read a study a while back on growth rate in synspilum and I think the optimum growth rate for them was setting at like 42.8 % protien no higher no lower I could be wrong on the exact number but do you figure it might be just the same with flowerhorns as well
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It very well could be as the leaders in all the high quality foods all stay around 38% to 40% but I'm also not too sure. I would think so because synspilum's are cichlids also but I guess you need a lab and some bright people to figure it out lol!
Nice to see that someone still reads my comments from time to time. 
To promote overall growth, the same could be accomplished using low cost generic farm feed high in protein & crude fat. This does not necessarily equate to quality growth, or ideal long term health, nor will it create a large kok in a fish if the genetics are not already in place. Daniel was correct on all counts.
To promote overall growth, the same could be accomplished using low cost generic farm feed high in protein & crude fat. This does not necessarily equate to quality growth, or ideal long term health, nor will it create a large kok in a fish if the genetics are not already in place. Daniel was correct on all counts.
