Future of the Ray Keeping Hobby?

[Ogertron3000]

I hate most mutations, besides things like albinos and melanistic. I don’t need no caramel BS. Short bodied monitors! I think i’d up and leave the internet!

Cichlids I think are a lost cause at this point. There are so little people actually keeping wild type cichlids these days. duanes and some other guy who’s name I can’t remember (wild collects most of his fish. CA Cichlid guy, last name starts with a W/R) are some of the only people I know of. It’s impossible to get a pure Midas/Red devil in Australia. The ones first brought in were hybrids in themselves.

I agree with you. They are, when it comes to all things, mutts.
Isn’t fish keeping about appreciating nature? I came into the hobby because of my father who was obsessed with native fish. ANGFA NSW prohibits the sale of hybrids rainbows. That’s a good thing. IMO mutts shouldn’t be in the hobby. It’s damaging for all of us.

To get back to the topic of rays, they are coming down for in price here in Aus. You really only have three choices though; Motoro, Black diamonds and hybrids. I know there is other species here, (i’ve seen at least 5 species in person) but these are the only ones readily available.
I think a reason why a lot of people aren’t keeping rays is because they need a lot of space, and these days all people are interested in is nano tanks and shrimp, which are cool in their own rights.
I for one would love a ray, but if I had a tank large enough, I’d rather get an Aussie lungfish.

I’ve noticed more rays for sale at a cheaper price here too, I don’t pay much attention but assumed they must be getting more popular. Fish seem to become cheap and plentiful here for a year then vanish again so it mis gut be just another trend.
I don’t know much at all about keeping rays but was always under the impression it was a very costly and high maintenance segment of the hobby which might account for a decline in interest if that’s really the case.

 

[Backfromthedead]

Seems to me there's a LOT of "no-breeder" (I hate calling fish "low quality") rays for sale these days relatively cheap. You see them cheapest when it's an apparent "out-of-the-hobby" type of sell-off.

I feel like when I do see some showstoppers for sale they are still demanding big money.

 

[Something Fishy Here]

Not specifically rays but hybrids and inbreds are very annoying. I was out of the hobby for a bit and when I recently came back iI started seeing things like blue jack dempseys, and the red texas already mentioned. I am pretty inexperienced with cichlids and thought they looked cool. But luckily I jumped on here first and upon finding out they were hybrids crossed them off my list. A lot of people don't do their research and the lfs's aren't telling people they're genetically weak deformed mutants. Just look what inbreeding has done to so many dog breeds, and people gladly pay fistfuls of money for these poor animals.

 

[rich81090]

I have been on here around 15years and ray keeping 10 now, I think some of the other guys in the U.K. (Jim Barry, Richard Hardwick etc) will probably agree that for us in the U.K. cost is a big factor. I think rays are very hard for hobbyists to get into due to tank sizes, cost etc, currently elec prices are crippling with many people in the U.K. shutting down tanks, even shops are struggling, down sizing and closing. Our houses are quite a bit smaller than state side so most simply haven’t got room for the suitable tanks. Slightly different but related I believe the animal charities this year have had over a ten fold increase in reptiles being given up as owners can no longer afford to keep them, I think that is mainly due to the heating requirements and cost which also directly relates to our hobby.

 

[Damascus]

The future in rays needs to emphasize heavily on pure breeds.

Those who know me know I LOVE hybrids. I keep more hybrid than pure. But I don't do it like Asia does for cranking out cheap hybrids but rather make more fish that I would enjoy.

I also keep pure leos. And yes I said it. Leopoldi. Not black diamonds or whatever the trade name is this week. Their should be a pedigree put into place for pure rays so that those who want hybrids can go that route and the pure breeds can be preserved since there is very little wild stock coming into the hobby anymore.

Just my professional unprofessional .02

 

[fishdance]

Big fish need big tanks to be kept well. It's a measure of commitment (some say passion) which does sort many fish keepers out.

At the same time, technology has allowed people to keep large tanks like never before. I don't have enough fingers to count the number of 100,000L+ tanks being kept privately. (With no social media presence) and I don't get out much. So this forum is no longer the place to come if you have big fish or large tanks.

On the subject of hybrids, it's actually good for the environment if hybrids become popular (to reduce the pressure on wild populations), even better if fish farms sterilise their stock so they can't captive breed. This concept won't be popular I know.

 

[jjohnwm]

Big fish need big tanks to be kept well. It's a measure of commitment (some say passion) which does sort many fish keepers out.

I don't think it sorts enough of them out. Reading through posts on MFK, it sometimes seems as though many people consider it completely acceptable to buy fish which will outgrow the accommodations they can offer, usually within a year...as long as they throw out that magical term "grow-out tank" like some sort of aquariological get-out-of-jail-free card.

...On the subject of hybrids, it's actually good for the environment if hybrids become popular (to reduce the pressure on wild populations), even better if fish farms sterilise their stock so they can't captive breed.

How is either of these statements true? Hybrids must be produced from pure adults; in the case of cichlids at least, and perhaps other fish as well, there seems to be some weird compulsion to buy wild fish versus captive-bred. In the case of the second statement, fish farms sterilizing their stock would literally encourage collecting from the wild for aquarium use.

I'd love to hear the reaction of a biologist to the statement that creating hybrids is good for natural populations. Many animals no longer exist as pure species, even in the wild, due to irresponsible cross-breeding and then intentional or unintentional releases back into the wild gene pool.

 

[Damascus]

Big fish need big tanks to be kept well. It's a measure of commitment (some say passion) which does sort many fish keepers out.

At the same time, technology has allowed people to keep large tanks like never before. I don't have enough fingers to count the number of 100,000L+ tanks being kept privately. (With no social media presence) and I don't get out much. So this forum is no longer the place to come if you have big fish or large tanks.

On the subject of hybrids, it's actually good for the environment if hybrids become popular (to reduce the pressure on wild populations), even better if fish farms sterilise their stock so they can't captive breed. This concept won't be popular I know.

This is quite possibly one of the most idiotic statements I have ever heard.

Hybrids are created from pure. That's the basis of a hybrid is a mix of things. If you go far enough back, sooner or later, the parent in question had to come from something pure.

The biggest issue I have with this is the notion that sterilizing stock will have a profound effect. This is quite literally the basis that has driven hybridization of many species and the collection and irreparable damage to others.

 

[Something Fishy Here]

My whole take on hybrids and designer fish is more philosophical. I want to have a part of nature in my house. Granted the glass box isnt neutral but every step away from that natural animal is a turn off for me personally. I don't begrudge others for wanting fashion fish, its just not why I'm in the hobby.

 

[jjohnwm]

My whole take on hybrids and designer fish is more philosophical. I want to have a part of nature in my house. Granted the glass box isnt neutral but every step away from that natural animal is a turn off for me personally. I don't begrudge others for wanting fashion fish, its just not why I'm in the hobby.

So perfectly true! I want a "piece of nature", not a science experiment.

And, to carry it a little bit further...if short bodies, elongated fins, glow-in-the-dark colours and all the other mutations could in any way be positive survival traits...then all the wild fish would have them. They don't, of course, because these weird genetic experiments are negative survival traits. Nature and natural evolution quickly weeds out these freaks, preventing them from passing on their freakish genes, while at the same time encouraging the "standard" forms by not eating or killing them immediately and thus allowing that standard form to be passed on.

One of the arguments I frequently see used by the lovers of these things is that mutations occur in nature, so they must be natural. The occurrence of a mutation is certainly a possibility in nature; what's not possible is that the one-in-a-billion specimen with that mutation will be encouraged and coddled and carefully nurtured to pass on the flawed genetic message if it doesn't confer some survival advantage to that individual.

If we selectively breed to create a strain of individuals that could not compete in nature, we are weakening the species as a whole. We are literally breeding culls to create more and weirder culls. And when we state that we will be careful, that we will take great pains to ensure that these substandard critters never make into the natural gene pool, or even into the hobby as a whole...well, we are either bald-faced liars, or at least very naive.

And before someone jumps up and says "Oh, but we don't meddle with the basic structure or design...we just want to make cool colours!"...don't go there. When you start cherry-picking specimens based solely upon one particular trait that you find inexplicably desirable...a specific colour, for example...and then cross-breed and line-breed them with an eye only towards that goal...you simply have no idea what other traits are being emphasized or suppressed. Natural mutations occur all the time, and almost all of them are terminated (culled) abruptly by natural selection. Thinking that the pink-polka-dotted ray you just created in your basement is not only "pretty" (?) but also genetically superior to a standard-issue specimen is a pipe-dream...not that many breeders even bother to consider that aspect.