Future of the Ray Keeping Hobby?

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So perfectly true! I want a "piece of nature", not a science experiment.

And, to carry it a little bit further...if short bodies, elongated fins, glow-in-the-dark colours and all the other mutations could in any way be positive survival traits...then all the wild fish would have them. They don't, of course, because these weird genetic experiments are negative survival traits. Nature and natural evolution quickly weeds out these freaks, preventing them from passing on their freakish genes, while at the same time encouraging the "standard" forms by not eating or killing them immediately and thus allowing that standard form to be passed on.

One of the arguments I frequently see used by the lovers of these things is that mutations occur in nature, so they must be natural. The occurrence of a mutation is certainly a possibility in nature; what's not possible is that the one-in-a-billion specimen with that mutation will be encouraged and coddled and carefully nurtured to pass on the flawed genetic message if it doesn't confer some survival advantage to that individual.

If we selectively breed to create a strain of individuals that could not compete in nature, we are weakening the species as a whole. We are literally breeding culls to create more and weirder culls. And when we state that we will be careful, that we will take great pains to ensure that these substandard critters never make into the natural gene pool, or even into the hobby as a whole...well, we are either bald-faced liars, or at least very naive.

And before someone jumps up and says "Oh, but we don't meddle with the basic structure or design...we just want to make cool colours!"...don't go there. When you start cherry-picking specimens based solely upon one particular trait that you find inexplicably desirable...a specific colour, for example...and then cross-breed and line-breed them with an eye only towards that goal...you simply have no idea what other traits are being emphasized or suppressed. Natural mutations occur all the time, and almost all of them are terminated (culled) abruptly by natural selection. Thinking that the pink-polka-dotted ray you just created in your basement is not only "pretty" (?) but also genetically superior to a standard-issue specimen is a pipe-dream...not that many breeders even bother to consider that aspect.
In the case of rays, there are many documented cases of wild occurring hybrids.

Again in the case of recessive genes, like piebald or albinism, these are both naturally occurring and many documented cases of well functioning adults. This proves a certain level of discredit to your statement as these animals are capable of competing in nature and thrive.

If your statement were completely true, then there would be far fewer documented cases of genetic anomalies
 
In the case of rays, there are many documented cases of wild occurring hybrids.

Again in the case of recessive genes, like piebald or albinism, these are both naturally occurring and many documented cases of well functioning adults. This proves a certain level of discredit to your statement as these animals are capable of competing in nature and thrive.

If your statement were completely true, then there would be far fewer documented cases of genetic anomalies


A new study from 2021 documents hybridization in the wild.
•Link to the article, scroll down to find the full PDF. https://www.researchgate.net/public..._and_reveals_speciation_in_Paratrygon_aiereba

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Sorry for butting in, i love rays but don't have the space. But with fish in general i like the natural forms because i have kids and we bond a lot by talking about this fish or that fish and where they come from and why these certain markings help them blend in to their environment and they're behavior habits and eating habits etc. Its very special to me and i hope they carry these memories for years to come. Even albino fish can be a good discussion on biology and natural genetics. But discussing the origins of the flowerhorn or the newest color someone bred is a track I'm not interested in going down with my kids too deeply besides saying those aren't natural and some guy was just playing around to make more money.
 
Sorry for butting in, i love rays but don't have the space. But with fish in general i like the natural forms because i have kids and we bond a lot by talking about this fish or that fish and where they come from and why these certain markings help them blend in to their environment and they're behavior habits and eating habits etc. Its very special to me and i hope they carry these memories for years to come. Even albino fish can be a good discussion on biology and natural genetics. But discussing the origins of the flowerhorn or the newest color someone bred is a track I'm not interested in going down with my kids too deeply besides saying those aren't natural and some guy was just playing around to make more money.
I know you did not make the follow points but feel this is a good add on to your commentary. Breeding for recessive traits is also not hybridization. It is no different than having a child with a different hair color.

For those that wish to ride around on their high horse and look down on recessive traits, I must remind you that recessive traits are indeed nature and were around before they were popularized. Captivity has simply allowed us to see more examples of this.
 
Yeah i have no problem with recessive traits, i have an albino bn in my tank. To me that's still a natural variant that happens. Its the crossbreeding of fish that never cross paths in nature that i don't want in my tank. I'm fine with others wanting hybrids etc, but I'm more of a naturalist at heart.
 
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Yeah i have no problem with recessive traits, i have an albino bn in my tank. To me that's still a natural variant that happens. Its the crossbreeding of fish that never cross paths in nature that i don't want in my tank. I'm fine with others wanting hybrids etc, but I'm more of a naturalist at heart.
I find myself of a similar mindset
 
In the case of rays, there are many documented cases of wild occurring hybrids.

Again in the case of recessive genes, like piebald or albinism, these are both naturally occurring and many documented cases of well functioning adults. This proves a certain level of discredit to your statement as these animals are capable of competing in nature and thrive.

If your statement were completely true, then there would be far fewer documented cases of genetic anomalies

I agree, this happens in nature as well. This type of "experimentation" is part and parcel of natural selection; the occasional hybrid or mutant arises here and there...but most are failures. The few successful "new" combinations may prosper and spread; Mule Deer, common throughout the western half of North America, have been shown by genetic studies to be a naturally-occuring hybrid between eastern Whitetails and west-coast Blacktails, resulting in a successful new species that could compete in certain environments with its parent species.

But again...most natural hybrids and/or mutants are unsuccessful, quickly culled by natural selection due to some negative survival trait(s). The occasional one is a success, and these are generally the ones we see and point at as examples of why hybrids are okay. We can't reference the unsuccessful ones because...we rarely get to see them before they disappear. Recessive traits are just that...recessive...because natural selection usually does not favour them. When they surface in nature, it's a combination of chance and luck.

In basement fish rooms all over the world we have hobbyists creating hybrids or breeding for specific recessive traits; they don't care if it could survive in nature, or for that matter if it will even survive long term in a fish tank, as long as it has the odd shape or colour which will generate sales dollars and/or bragging rights. How many times have we heard that Flowerhorns, for example, are weak, inferior fish that tend not to have robust immune systems and don't usually live as long as expected?

I always regret getting involved in this topic, because invariably someone will get pissy and begin to defend the indefensible by utilizing personal jabs and attacks, i.e. "high horse". And yet, an opinion was originally solicited by the OP; the simple fact is that everyone has one and we do not all agree. Falling back on insults is a typical tactic when a realistic appraisal fails to produce the desired result.

But, before I bow out, I'll just call attention to the following quote:

"Breeding for recessive traits is also not hybridization. It is no different than having a child with a different hair color."

Sure, go on believing that; two human parents having a child that exhibits a recessive hair colour is exactly the same as a fish breeder selectively breeding through multiple generations for some odd recessive variant, with no eye towards overall health and survivability. The two situations are virtually indistinguishable. :shakehead

I yield the floor. Have at 'er.
 
Creating a demand for captive breed fish morphs reduces pressure on wild caught fish. Plenty of examples of developed morphs, hybrid or otherwise.
Fish farms have been deliberately sterilising some high end species for many years to control their markets. Similarly the lineage or methods to produce some fish morphs is a closely guarded secret.

As many would already know, on 12 August 2022 there was a proposal to list 7 of the freshwater stingray species onto Appendix 2 of CITES which would greatly reduce the availability of these stingray species (and "look-alike types) due to trade restrictions, legal documentation and fulfilment of onerous import requirements (with some contries having further importation obstacles).

https://cites.org/eng/cop/19/amendment-proposals .
Potamotrygon albimaculata
Potamotrygon henlei
Potamotrygon jabuti
Potamotrygon leopoldi
Potamotrygon marquesi
Potamotrygon signata
Potamotrygon wallacei


It may well be that soon keeping hybrid rays is the best way to keep rays. Any domestic breeding of pure bred (and "look-alike" species) may need to get CITES certification or risk fines/goal time.
 
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SO, IF the future of ray keeping is so strong then why are the people that ARE breeding PURE blooded rays tossing in the towel?

Cause the people tossing in the towel aren't being supported. Shouldn't be hard to sell pure blooded rays but here we are - shopping LFSs to help move them gives a glimpse into the priority of fish shops which is to maximize profit - so if they can't double their money they simply aren't interested. So leaves no choice really - either sell the breeders and raise the offspring or just quit breeding them altogether. With no pup sales to help offset the $1K/mo electric bills and half that in food a month why would anyone with any common sense push forward? Cause they can afford to, but to people like me who simply can't there's only 1 option. Myself, I'll likely always have a ray tank, but watching my fellow hobbyists that have been in this longer then I have hang it up just makes me sick.....
 
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