Getting a mbu in the near future.
- Thread starter bahamaqt00
- Start date
Just remember that fish will put our a stunting hormone when their tank starts seeming too small to them (they are used to living in large rivers) & can permanently stunt themselves way before you realize they need a larger tank.
we had a mbu before that wasn't very active, and wasn't tankmate friendly either. He's eaten a few cory's, plecos, baby platy's, and tetras...my g/f got mad and we sold him. a month or two later some came up for sale, and we picked up two. They seem to be getting along for the most part in a 160g, and one of them is super active, swimming up to greet you when you walk by the tank, and will even let you pet him. It all depends on the fish...some might end up being very active, some will be anti social...good luck in your quest to have a mbu!
Do you have a link to any studies or peer reviewed papers involving Mbu puffers where this has proven to be the case?
Not to nit pick, but stunting is generally caused by stress, and in your example it would most likely be from environmental stress caused by pollution, not the size of the tank. There is an important distinction between the two.
An interesting read on this subject is the "5 gallon Oscar tank " by David Boruchowitz, Editor-in-chief of Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine. The outline of his experiment, and the results can be found in the following link.
http://www.theoscarspot.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4894
This is precisely in line with the old Army Corps of Engineers dictum of "The Solution to Pollution is Dilution" - which I see you use as your sig line.
While a fish may exhibit neurotic behavior from being overly cramped in a tank where it can barely move, given pristine water quality it will continue to grow. In the Nov 2009 issue of TFH David Boruchowitz has an article where he explores a mathematical investigation into water changes. I'm sure that a lot of hobbyists would be surprised by the results, but it really just boils down to common sense. In theory a 500 gallon tank could have far better water quality than a 1,000 gallon tank. It all boils down to stocking levels, feeding, filtration, and most importantly, water changes.
Take 2 tanks, one a 1,000 gallon tank that receives weekly water changes of 20-25% (and houses a "few" very large fish, and a second tank, a 500 gallon tank that receives a 20% daily water change via an auto water change system, and contains a single very large fish. Which tank do you think will provide a healthier environment for the lifetime of a large adult fish, such as an Mbu? Given the proper footprint for the fishes adult size, the latter tank, even though much smaller, would obviously provide more optimum water quality, and IMO more optimum overall conditions for the lifetime of the fish.
While I applaud your efforts for ensuring that these magnificent fish don't end up spending their lifetime in a 180 gallon tank, IMO Mbu's don't require 1,000 gallon systems.
What they do require is some very serious dedication by the owners. Personally I would much rather see an adult Mbu in an 8.5 ft x 3ft x 30" tank (approx. 475 gallons), with consistent high water quality, vs one kept in a 1,000 tank with only average, or below average water quality.
RD, Dadof4 has some interesting info on stunting, discussed at TPF. There's also a sticky there on that subject.
I'm aware of what's been posted on TPF, but repeating things over & over again don't make them magically become facts.
While I agree that scaleless fish can be more sensitive to their water parameters than other species, I don't recall ever reading about them emitting a stunting hormone when their tank starts seeming too small for them, which is why I asked if you could provide any studies or peer reviewed papers involving Mbu puffers where this has proven to be the case?
Increased GH levels are what I consider part of the overall "pollution" in a closed system,
which is typically caused by overcrowding, and/or by insufficient water changes. With the former you can see the same thing in large ponds, or even in small lakes, where an over abundance of certain species can create an entire lake to produce nothing but stunted fish.
So while elevated GH levels in the water may indeed be one way that a fish can become stunted, the easiest way to prevent that from happening in an aquarium is by keeping the water quality high via water changes.
From what I can gather this entire notion that a single adult Mbu requires a 1,000 gallon tank (minimum) was started by an individual who apparently didn't understand what this species requires to keep it healthy long term. After his negative experience with his Mbu in a 180 gallon tank, he made a post about what he personally felt the fish truly required (1,000 gallons) which has then been repeated over & over & over again. Stuart Morse later echoes the same sentiments in his article on Mbu, after his failed attempt at raising his Mbu in a 100 gallon tank. (400 litres to be precise)
Take a look at the Mbu in the link below;
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195077
and again in this link;
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190869
21-22" TL, it was approx 6-7 yrs old when it died due to a mechanical malfunction, and according to the owner was raised in a 5'x2'x2' tank. Does it look stunted to you?
I realize that there have been Mbu that have reached 30" in captivity, but if one doesn't reach 30" it doesn't necessarily equate to the fish being inadequately cared for. There is almost no data available on this species, including the average adult size in the wild, their growth rates, or even the growth rates & maximum size between sexes.
I'm not attempting to imply that a 5x2x2' tank is an ideal set up, but with frequent massive water changes, in reality it may actually be more ideal than a much larger tank, that receives less than ideal maintenance.
That was the entire point of my previous comment.
While I agree that scaleless fish can be more sensitive to their water parameters than other species, I don't recall ever reading about them emitting a stunting hormone when their tank starts seeming too small for them, which is why I asked if you could provide any studies or peer reviewed papers involving Mbu puffers where this has proven to be the case?
Increased GH levels are what I consider part of the overall "pollution" in a closed system,
which is typically caused by overcrowding, and/or by insufficient water changes. With the former you can see the same thing in large ponds, or even in small lakes, where an over abundance of certain species can create an entire lake to produce nothing but stunted fish.
So while elevated GH levels in the water may indeed be one way that a fish can become stunted, the easiest way to prevent that from happening in an aquarium is by keeping the water quality high via water changes.
From what I can gather this entire notion that a single adult Mbu requires a 1,000 gallon tank (minimum) was started by an individual who apparently didn't understand what this species requires to keep it healthy long term. After his negative experience with his Mbu in a 180 gallon tank, he made a post about what he personally felt the fish truly required (1,000 gallons) which has then been repeated over & over & over again. Stuart Morse later echoes the same sentiments in his article on Mbu, after his failed attempt at raising his Mbu in a 100 gallon tank. (400 litres to be precise)
Take a look at the Mbu in the link below;
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195077
and again in this link;
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190869
21-22" TL, it was approx 6-7 yrs old when it died due to a mechanical malfunction, and according to the owner was raised in a 5'x2'x2' tank. Does it look stunted to you?
I realize that there have been Mbu that have reached 30" in captivity, but if one doesn't reach 30" it doesn't necessarily equate to the fish being inadequately cared for. There is almost no data available on this species, including the average adult size in the wild, their growth rates, or even the growth rates & maximum size between sexes.
I'm not attempting to imply that a 5x2x2' tank is an ideal set up, but with frequent massive water changes, in reality it may actually be more ideal than a much larger tank, that receives less than ideal maintenance.
That was the entire point of my previous comment.
Actually yes, considering there is no reason it shouldn't reach it's wild size in captivity, granted there is adequate food, filtration & waste dilution (best done with water changes & large water mass).
Aah, but there's the rub, you're basing your opinion on a very, very limited pool of data.
How many wild adult Mbu have actually been collected, and/or studied to any degree?
What were their average sizes? (not just the largest, but the average TL & weight)
Were the larger specimens male, or female?
Do adult sizes vary within geographical locations, such as those collected in Lake Tanganyika, vs those collected in the Congo River basin?
These are just some of the questions that would need to be answered before one could even begin speculating about optimum, or even average adult sizes in the wild, as well as what should be considered stunted in captivity.
How many wild adult Mbu have actually been collected, and/or studied to any degree?
What were their average sizes? (not just the largest, but the average TL & weight)
Were the larger specimens male, or female?
Do adult sizes vary within geographical locations, such as those collected in Lake Tanganyika, vs those collected in the Congo River basin?
These are just some of the questions that would need to be answered before one could even begin speculating about optimum, or even average adult sizes in the wild, as well as what should be considered stunted in captivity.
I'm not saying I'm sure the average adult size of a wild mbu is 30" but it makes total sense to me that any fish should attain their wild size in captivity, especially since they don't have to hunt for food (hence they get fed much more often), can be treated for most diseases & have no enemies to speak of. Unless as you say (which I also tend to agree with), the fish is of a stunted/runt form from birth.
