Got burned by Cichlids of the Americas

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I totally agree with duanes and rd. You got exactly what you paid for. Don't be so quick to assume something.

I have ordered from Dan numerous times and received nothing but top notch fish. Communication was great, he sent pics upon request, and answered any questions I had within a day. You can't be perfect all the time but this has been my experience over the yrs.

Midas and rd's are a pia to deal with. I got questioned about my Midas from rapps when I was giving it away. One guy asked 3 times about midevil. I told him to get out of my house. I showed the paperwork SF libre Midas with the original pic and a couple people still have me grief
 
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Same happened to me 6 months ago (from COTA) but I ordered a pair (4-5inch) and got what appears to be one Midas(female) and one red devil/midelvil male. The still have different shaped mouths to this day, but I've bred the female to another Midas in my stock already. Amazingly she was orange, and turned/peeled WHITE once I put her with my white male that she bred with.

I still prefer to get bigger ones for this reason(with at least a starting nuchal hump), but oh well sh*t happens.

Anyhow,
I informed Dan at COTA (and got a reply) but nothing was ever offered to fix the issue....

Life goes on....
 
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Sounds like a location problem. If it happening so often. I believe what was said in previous post ask questions, ask for photos and ask for paperwork before purchasing. That way you are clear on what you buying and is content with your purchase. No, such thing as too many questions. Midas ( Amphilophus citrinellus ) do very on locations and if it not wild caught you can't really determine what the spawn will look like. Good luck with your fish
 
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I have read that sticky before, but in the case of fish collected from Lake Arenal, isn't the bulk of the point rather moot? If the Lake was created by man and stocked by man, at a time when the understanding of the species complex was muddy to say the least, shouldn't the fish collected from that lake fall under the same criteria of other amphilophus where the lineage and collection points are unknown? To call a lake Arenal amphilophus a pure citrinellum, especially without genetic analysis, seems to me, to be more speculation than responsible identification/classification.

Perhaps the difference in vendor's stock is genetic, and they are labeling different fish under the same name. I know the WC Lake Nicaraguan Rapps' citrinellum, imported several years back, were rather uniform in mouth structure and body composition despite the wide variety of patterns and colors. At least they appeared that way from photos shared on the web.
 
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The point is one cannot simply look at a fishes lips, shape of head, depth of body, etc, and determine it's genetics. This becomes rather obvious to anyone that has actually taken the time to read the evidence provided in all of the various DNA studies performed to date. So if one is going to question the purity of a Lake Arenal citrinellus, then they should also be prepared to do the same with every single Amphilophus collected in the great lakes, as there are various species, and various morphological differences between different fish, found within the midas complex.

The answer is not all of the cits collected by Rapps etc over the years have been uniform in mouth structure, and/or body shape. I believe that I have seen every photo posted by Jeff, certainly every photo posted here on MFK, as well as later photos supplied by many of his customers, some of them friends of mine. This is precisely why Jeff has always listed the collection location, with cits all collected in the same body of water. These are large lakes, and local variants can differ in shape, as well as color. Some may even be reclassified at a later date, as a new species. This has happened several times, and as posted in one of the papers that I linked to previously, many of those who have spent years studying these fish believe that there will be several more new species of Amphilophus to come out of the great lakes midas complex.

It is idiotic to argue about how one midas doesn't look midas enough to be a midas, when the reality is even fish considered by the experts to be within the midas complex can have various non midas traits, such as elongated heads, fleshy lips, and a compressed/flat body shape. DNA has proven that these fish are not labiatus. Physical characteristics are often largely dependant on what each variant eats and where it hunts in the wild, which can vary from one location to another. If the midas in Lake Arenal live and hunt in rocky locations, this could prove to be why they differ from other fish that have been collected or imported by Rapps, in non rocky locations, and/or that feed on a different primary food source.

Make sense?

The OP, as well as a few others that have chimed in, are complaining because their midas don't look midas enough. I personally find that ridiculous. What next - I got Burned because my midas doesn't have a massive nuchal hump?

If you demand an exact look to your fish, get a photo before you send your money, and buy a semi mature or mature fish with those exact characteristics that you desire.
 
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While it appears that some of the links provided in that sticky no longer work, the following one is still alive and well. For the uber lazy, just read the opening paragraph, that should sum things up for anyone who is still stuck in the mindset that all fish within the midas complex have the exact same look.

http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/royptb/365/1547/1763.full.pdf


The polychromatic and trophically polymorphic Midas cichlid fish species complex (Amphilophus cf. citrinellus) is an excellent model system for studying the mechanisms of speciation and patterns of phenotypic diversification in allopatry and in sympatry. Here, we first review research to date on the species complex and the geological history of its habitat. We analyse body shape variation from all currently described species in the complex, sampled from six crater lakes (maximally 1.2–23.9 kyr old) and both great lakes in Nicaragua. We find that Midas cichlid populations in each lake have their own characteristic body shape. In lakes with multiple sympatric species of Midas cichlid, each species has a distinct body shape. Across the species complex, most body shape change relates to body depth, head, snout and mouth shape and caudal peduncle length. There is independent parallel evolution of an elongate limnetic species in at least two crater lakes. Mitochondrial genetic diversity is higher in crater lakes with multiple species. Midas cichlid species richness increases with the size and age of the crater lakes, though no such relationship exists for the other syntopic fishes. We suggest that crater lake Midas cichlids follow the predicted pattern of an adaptive radiation, with early divergence of each crater lake colonization, followed by intralacustrine diversification and speciation by ecological adaptation and sexual selection.
 
RD. said:
While it appears that some of the links provided in that sticky no longer work, the following one is still alive and well. For the uber lazy, just read the opening paragraph, that should sum things up for anyone who is still stuck in the mindset that all fish within the midas complex have the exact same look.

http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/royptb/365/1547/1763.full.pdf


The polychromatic and trophically polymorphic Midas cichlid fish species complex (Amphilophus cf. citrinellus) is an excellent model system for studying the mechanisms of speciation and patterns of phenotypic diversification in allopatry and in sympatry. Here, we first review research to date on the species complex and the geological history of its habitat. We analyse body shape variation from all currently described species in the complex, sampled from six crater lakes (maximally 1.2–23.9 kyr old) and both great lakes in Nicaragua. We find that Midas cichlid populations in each lake have their own characteristic body shape. In lakes with multiple sympatric species of Midas cichlid, each species has a distinct body shape. Across the species complex, most body shape change relates to body depth, head, snout and mouth shape and caudal peduncle length. There is independent parallel evolution of an elongate limnetic species in at least two crater lakes. Mitochondrial genetic diversity is higher in crater lakes with multiple species. Midas cichlid species richness increases with the size and age of the crater lakes, though no such relationship exists for the other syntopic fishes. We suggest that crater lake Midas cichlids follow the predicted pattern of an adaptive radiation, with early divergence of each crater lake colonization, followed by intralacustrine diversification and speciation by ecological adaptation and sexual selection.
Click to expand...

So what your saying is..you can't tell what the hell it just by looking. (joking)

Some people just refuse to be believe the truth even if you lay it out right in front of them.
 
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This is why I order a group of juvies "after" checking to see what the parents look like. I keep the ones with the qualities I like and give away the rest...well usually they end up feeders but still.
 
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