H. scomberoides sudden death

[caio.sampaio]

Thanks guys.

DB junkie, I also believe that there are always reasons.

You believe with feeders well nourished (enough protein), that's just enough for the scomb? what is a good diet for them?

 

[DB junkie]

I think it's either the high mineral content water here, not high enough oxygen levels, or poor diet (un natural diet like shrimp or smelt).

I personally think live (feeders) is the only way to go. Seemed like the sooner I got my Armatus off live the sooner they died. Could have been other things, purely my opinion, just sharing my thoughts. Been wrong before, will be again.

 

[kendragon]

I think it's either the high mineral content water here, not high enough oxygen levels, or poor diet (un natural diet like shrimp or smelt).

I personally think live (feeders) is the only way to go. Seemed like the sooner I got my Armatus off live the sooner they died. Could have been other things, purely my opinion, just sharing my thoughts. Been wrong before, will be again.

Alan, I think you are correct about the water quality and smelt. Once my armatus hit 12" they go into the death spin. I'm leaning more towards diet.

 

[Chicxulub]

Thanks guys.

DB junkie, I also believe that there are always reasons.

You believe with feeders well nourished (enough protein), that's just enough for the scomb? what is a good diet for them?

A diet with a staple of high quality pellets is always best. You can give the occasional feeder fish as a treat, but ideally it should be a fish that is natural prey of the predator you're feeding, such as cichlids for my African tigers, not a cyprinid like goldfish or guppies (unless of course your fish feeds on cyprinids, but there's still better options). I also give cut pieces of trout with skin attached to my fish as snacks and as a staple to the one who won't come to the surface to get pellets, my Brachyplatystoma juruense.

Normally, I've found that people only feed gut loaded feeders to a fish that won't break. However I feel that every fish will eventually break, you just have to be persistent. It took me over four months to break my scomb. Now that he's broke, he looks better than he ever has and he is growing quicker, too.

"But chicx, you're feeding your TATF rosies!"

Yes, I am. I concede that you have to feed feeders to a fish that's not broken yet, especially if they're too small to starve. However, I will break that fish as soon as I feel that he's big enough to come through a month long or longer starvation period in order to learn. Because I'm giving him feeders, I also have him quarantined away from my main tank. Before I became a pellet fan, my fish had various bacterial infections and ich. My fish have never been sick since I've been feeding dead.

 

[DB junkie]

Alan, I think you are correct about the water quality and smelt. Once my armatus hit 12" they go into the death spin. I'm leaning more towards diet.

My first got the biggest - 15" or so. Was fed feeders for a long time. Next batch was broke sooner, died sooner. Next batch same deal. Not sure they made it past 10".

Trev's fish "Fang" got lots of feeders, grew pretty big. I'm not aware of many that got much bigger then Fang?

The first one we saw from Japan in the magazine with the black rays was always fed live.

I'd love to try another one feeding only native stuff - walleye, perch, bass. A crazy nice UV, lots of circulation, crazy air, and aerated degassed tap water mixed with RO. I can't imagine our tap water parameters to be anywhere even close to what these fish live in.

Maybe the crazy gas disease stuff that discus get also occurs in Characins? Armatus aren't the only ones that develop the "Characin stuppor" or death spins. Maybe our drip systems are a death sentence? Maybe the water we're using MUST be gassed off for 24+ hours prior to going into the tank???

I'd bet the solution is somewhere in there. I wanted to try to figure it out but went bust on space and got into rays, which love to eat Characins... lol

 

[Chicxulub]

My first got the biggest - 15" or so. Was fed feeders for a long time. Next batch was broke sooner, died sooner. Next batch same deal. Not sure they made it past 10".

Trev's fish "Fang" got lots of feeders, grew pretty big. I'm not aware of many that got much bigger then Fang?

The first one we saw from Japan in the magazine with the black rays was always fed live.

I'd love to try another one feeding only native stuff - walleye, perch, bass. A crazy nice UV, lots of circulation, crazy air, and aerated degassed tap water mixed with RO. I can't imagine our tap water parameters to be anywhere even close to what these fish live in.

Maybe the crazy gas disease stuff that discus get also occurs in Characins? Armatus aren't the only ones that develop the "Characin stuppor" or death spins. Maybe our drip systems are a death sentence? Maybe the water we're using MUST be gassed off for 24+ hours prior to going into the tank???

I'd bet the solution is somewhere in there. I wanted to try to figure it out but went bust on space and got into rays, which love to eat Characins... lol

What were the feeders used, though? I know in the East they like using dojo loaches as feeders instead of cyprinids as they're much healthier. If dojos weren't $5 a pop in my part of the country, I think I'd like to do that, too.

I've heard a lot about smelt causing problems for fish that are fed it, so I avoid it personally. Smelt do contain thiaminase and there have been many studies done that show that a primary forage of introduced, nonnative smelt has a a detrimental effect on the health of the predatory salmonids studied. Based on this, I won't feed smelt or any other thiaminase containing food to my fish as a staple part of the diet.

I'm going to look into this issue with the RODI systems. I was considering setting up a drip system and that definitely bears further investigation.

 

[Slippery K]

What were the feeders used, though? I know in the East they like using dojo loaches as feeders instead of cyprinids as they're much healthier. If dojos weren't $5 a pop in my part of the country, I think I'd like to do that, too.

I've heard a lot about smelt causing problems for fish that are fed it, so I avoid it personally. Smelt do contain thiaminase and there have been many studies done that show that a primary forage of introduced, nonnative smelt has a a detrimental effect on the health of the predatory salmonids studied. Based on this, I won't feed smelt or any other thiaminase containing food to my fish as a staple part of the diet.

I'm going to look into this issue with the RODI systems. I was considering setting up a drip system and that definitely bears further investigation.

Chicx, do thiaminase apply to talapia aswell? Just regular raw fillets from grocery stores?

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[Chicxulub]

Chicx, do thiaminase apply to talapia aswell? Just regular raw fillets from grocery stores?

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I have not seen any evidence that indicates that Tilapiini, or indeed any of Cichlidae, contains thiaminase.

Edit- There is an issue you can run into feeding fillets, however. I've seen that a lot of people on here who feed fillets skin the fillet before feeding the fish. I would recommend feeding chunks that still have the skin attached, as the skin contains a lot of vitamins an nutrients that are absent from the meat, which is mainly raw protein. I practice what I preach here, even though only one of my fish gets my Trout Chunks™ as a staple in its diet.

 

[Slippery K]

Ok, good to hear. Unfortunatly when I buy my fillets they come pre cut and de-scaled. Maybe I should start buying whole fish insted or switch the fw fish to silversides.

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[Chicxulub]

Ok, good to hear. Unfortunatly when I buy my fillets they come pre cut and de-scaled. Maybe I should start buying whole fish insted or switch the fw fish to silversides.

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I like to feed trout because of that. It normally costs the same or less than the tilapia and it has the skin on one side.