Has your Flowerhorn ever gotten sick/disease

[Chicklette]

Mine had a parasite. It was very hard to get rid of. He almost died. First I tried jungle parasite clear, then a different kind, finally I got parasite food and that worked.

 

[Musha]

I frequestly deal with hex and most come with some type of parasite. I have only lost one fish in "my" possession from disease and he has a STD from another female.

 

[BIG_ONE]

I frequestly deal with hex and most come with some type of parasite. I have only lost one fish in "my" possession from disease and he has a STD from another female.

I highly agree with Musha, hex is one of the most common diseases out there. Also one of the most lethal and a flowerhorn hobbyist worst nightmare if not taken care of properly at the beginning. Once it hits at its climax of the hex process, there is no turning back from what I've learned in my own experienced. If your fish manage to make it after it has reaches its climax, your fish is REAL lucky.

 

[midasman714]

thanks for all the votes, lets get some more. but it seems like the results are expected.

when i first started keeping fish, i kept midas and red devils. they lasted years, actually only had 1 case of ich in a span of 8 years, and i didnt take nearly as good care as i do with flowerhorns

anyhow, i still love flowerhorns but they are testing my patience. if i lose my RD, i will consider switching back to common cichlids.

 

[midasman714]

bump for more votes

 

[honda237]

i voted for the first 6 months, because i only imported mine, and after losing some i started to just deworm them. Other than that, no all my flowerhorns are healthy as can be.

 

[FishingOut]

I might be one of the lucky ones, But ive personally never dealt with a sick Horn. I hear a lot of crap like flowerhorns are prone to hex and blah blah blah. In reality, the unfortunate fact is, Alot of FH keepers arent the most responsible pet owners. No questions asked that is the biggest cause of premature death. Everything from feeding goldfish, to not testing water. Its not easy to determine if Hex killed a fish, Pretty much every internal ailment is similair in appearance as hex, but hex always seems to be the go to disease.
My horns have always been extremely healthy. I cant say the same for a Green Terror, as well as a Chocolate I had.

RD. I really believe its impractical to breed for disease resistance. Thats not really what the customer is after, Plus it partualy contributes to the demand of fish. If a fish can live to sexual maturity, I believe it has already proved its susceptibility to disease. And obviously a sick fish wont breed. Another reason I live FH is because they live hard and die young, As well as look great doing it. Nobody wants an old ass ugly fish breed for its resistance to disease. Better to burn out, than fade away, As Neil Young would say.

Until somebody does the studies "hybrid vigor" is just as plausible. I mean, they have been bred from the best specimens of the best specimens.

 

[RD.]

I didn't vote as the only health issues my FH have suffered, is due to the way they were handled before I received them. Once those problems were addressed, I've had zero health issues in my fish. (knock on wood)


While I agree with some of your points, Fishing Out, IMO it's not impractical at all to breed for disease resistance, if as a breeder you actually give a damn about the vigor of your strain of fish. The problem with many large scale commercial breeders is they don't want to cull a fish if it can be sold for a tidy sum of $$$$, and they don't want to put any more effort into their breeding program than they have to. This doesn't just apply to FH. I see this all the time, in numerous species of fish that for one reason or another are in high demand. It's called sloppy breeding.

Best specimens, to the best specimens, by whose standards?

Most breeders that actually have morals, and scruples, and care about their name & the livestock they sell don't define "best" simply by the physical attributes of the fish. Talk to some of the better FH breeders in SE Asia, by trial & error most will be able to tell you what types of breeding will give you a weak & sickly strain of fish, and they will avoid an overdose of that genetic make up in their line breeding programs. Others will breed anything into their line to fix certain popular traits, no matter how much it may introduce unwanted or defective genes. They don't care as they don't care what the results are of breeding outside of their facility. I can understand that, but not if it's at the expense of the very fish that they are selling.

There is absolutely no physiological reason why a FH should "live hard, and die young". None whatsoever. The vast majority of a FH's genetic make up is from CA species that are known to reach 8-10 yrs in captivity, some closer to 15 yrs. IMO there's nothing "ass ugly" about a massive CA cichlid that is approaching 10 yrs of age.

Yet if you peruse many of the threads on sites such a FHcraze, you will find numerous examples of FH under 5 yrs of age that died from sudden unknown reasons, in the hands of experienced fishkeepers - not people whom I would be so quick to judge & refer to as "irresponsible pet owners".

I'm guessing that the OP of this discussion knows how to properly care for his fish, yet months down the road it too suddenly became sick. If not a genetically weak strain of FH, then what? Just a lot of people with very bad luck?

I just recently watched a local discus breeder cull an entire tank full of Malaysian discus ($1,000+), due to the fish being genetically weak specimens that were constantly getting sick from day 1. The rest of his 3500 gallon discus set up is fine, healthy strong fish with no health issues. These fish should have all been culled, not bagged & exported to some poor unsuspecting buyer. But I see this all the time in my biz, where genetically piss poor fish are sold as A+ quality. IME any customer that is dropping hundreds/thousands of $$$ on fish, is most certainly looking for
not just beautiful fish, but fish that are also genetically hard wired for disease resistance.

I can't imagine that anyone plans to buy genetically inferior fish, be it for breeding, or just to keep as pet stock.


BTW - hexamita (the correct term is spironucleus) is actually a very common disease in FH, discus, angel fish, and many other tropical species
of fish.

Hexamita - cold water species of fish
Spironucleus sp. - Warm water species of fish

It has been suggested that some fish may harbor these parasites in a subclinical state, which can become pathogenic under stressful conditions, such as overcrowding, poor water quality, nutritional inadequacies, etc.

Clinical signs of fishes infected by diplomonad flagellates vary from no clinical signs (Mo et al., 1990) to severe symptoms (Kent et al., 1992). Infected salmonids and aquarium fishes may show clinical signs of anorexia, anemia, emaciation, lethargy, hyperpigmentation, fecal pseudocasts, enteritis with excess mucus and yellow watery or jelly-like contents or swollen abdomen (Ferguson and Moccia, 1980; Kent et al., 1992; McElwain, 1968; Mo et al., 1990;


Heavy infections of these diplomonad flagellates may interfere with normal growth of the host by competition with nutrient absorption (Yasutake et al., 1961).

Although Hexamita and Spironucleus cause disease in several economically important fish species in many regions of the world, their pathogenicity is not well known (Woo and Poynton, 1995). It has been believed that the effects and the severity of diplomonad infection are dependent on fish size, tissue site infested, environmental conditions, stocking density, season and stress factors (Allison, 1963; Buchmann and Uldal, 1996; Mo et al., 1990; Uldal and Buchmann, 1996).

It has been suggested that only Spironucleus spp. cause systemic infection because they can invade intestinal mucosa and disseminate to other tissues (Siddall et al., 1992). Evidence of systemic spironucleosis was reported in cyprinids and aquarium fishes (Molnár, 1974), and in salmonids (Mo et al., 1990; Poppe et al., 1992; Sterud et al., 1997). In cyprinids, many Spironucleus sp. were found in the gut where they caused reddening of the mucous membrane, brownish-gray discoloration and necrosis of liver, and haemorrhagic enteritis. In aquarium fishes, the parasite has been reported to cause losses in angelfish stock of up to 50% of the population.

While I agree that one may only know what killed their fish with 100% certainty when a proper necropsy is performed, you don't need to be a DVM, and it doesn't take a huge leap of faith, to equate a fish that stops eating, begins excreting white jelly like feces, to a classic case of advanced hex/spiro. According to the experts, Spironucleus vortens IS the organism responsible for the vast majority of "Hexamita" cases in freshwater tropical species of fish.

When placed under stress, a genetically weak fish will succumb to an outbreak of these flagellates far easier, and quicker, than a genetically superior fish placed under the exact same environmental conditions.

 

[RD.]

Just wanted to add, the comments made where the names of researchers are stated, are portions of actual journals/studies, not my words.

 

[BIG_ONE]

I didn't vote as the only health issues my FH have suffered, is due to the way they were handled before I received them. Once those problems were addressed, I've had zero health issues in my fish. (knock on wood)


While I agree with some of your points, Fishing Out, IMO it's not impractical at all to breed for disease resistance, if as a breeder you actually give a damn about the vigor of your strain of fish. The problem with many large scale commercial breeders is they don't want to cull a fish if it can be sold for a tidy sum of $$$$, and they don't want to put any more effort into their breeding program than they have to. This doesn't just apply to FH. I see this all the time, in numerous species of fish that for one reason or another are in high demand. It's called sloppy breeding.

Best specimens, to the best specimens, by whose standards?

Most breeders that actually have morals, and scruples, and care about their name & the livestock they sell don't define "best" simply by the physical attributes of the fish. Talk to some of the better FH breeders in SE Asia, by trial & error most will be able to tell you what types of breeding will give you a weak & sickly strain of fish, and they will avoid an overdose of that genetic make up in their line breeding programs. Others will breed anything into their line to fix certain popular traits, no matter how much it may introduce unwanted or defective genes. They don't care as they don't care what the results are of breeding outside of their facility. I can understand that, but not if it's at the expense of the very fish that they are selling.

There is absolutely no physiological reason why a FH should "live hard, and die young". None whatsoever. The vast majority of a FH's genetic make up is from CA species that are known to reach 8-10 yrs in captivity, some closer to 15 yrs. IMO there's nothing "ass ugly" about a massive CA cichlid that is approaching 10 yrs of age.

Yet if you peruse many of the threads on sites such a FHcraze, you will find numerous examples of FH under 5 yrs of age that died from sudden unknown reasons, in the hands of experienced fishkeepers - not people whom I would be so quick to judge & refer to as "irresponsible pet owners".

I'm guessing that the OP of this discussion knows how to properly care for his fish, yet months down the road it too suddenly became sick. If not a genetically weak strain of FH, then what? Just a lot of people with very bad luck?

I just recently watched a local discus breeder cull an entire tank full of Malaysian discus ($1,000+), due to the fish being genetically weak specimens that were constantly getting sick from day 1. The rest of his 3500 gallon discus set up is fine, healthy strong fish with no health issues. These fish should have all been culled, not bagged & exported to some poor unsuspecting buyer. But I see this all the time in my biz, where genetically piss poor fish are sold as A+ quality. IME any customer that is dropping hundreds/thousands of $$$ on fish, is most certainly looking for
not just beautiful fish, but fish that are also genetically hard wired for disease resistance.

I can't imagine that anyone plans to buy genetically inferior fish, be it for breeding, or just to keep as pet stock.


BTW - hexamita (the correct term is spironucleus) is actually a very common disease in FH, discus, angel fish, and many other tropical species
of fish.

Hexamita - cold water species of fish
Spironucleus sp. - Warm water species of fish

It has been suggested that some fish may harbor these parasites in a subclinical state, which can become pathogenic under stressful conditions, such as overcrowding, poor water quality, nutritional inadequacies, etc.

Clinical signs of fishes infected by diplomonad flagellates vary from no clinical signs (Mo et al., 1990) to severe symptoms (Kent et al., 1992). Infected salmonids and aquarium fishes may show clinical signs of anorexia, anemia, emaciation, lethargy, hyperpigmentation, fecal pseudocasts, enteritis with excess mucus and yellow watery or jelly-like contents or swollen abdomen (Ferguson and Moccia, 1980; Kent et al., 1992; McElwain, 1968; Mo et al., 1990;


Heavy infections of these diplomonad flagellates may interfere with normal growth of the host by competition with nutrient absorption (Yasutake et al., 1961).

Although Hexamita and Spironucleus cause disease in several economically important fish species in many regions of the world, their pathogenicity is not well known (Woo and Poynton, 1995). It has been believed that the effects and the severity of diplomonad infection are dependent on fish size, tissue site infested, environmental conditions, stocking density, season and stress factors (Allison, 1963; Buchmann and Uldal, 1996; Mo et al., 1990; Uldal and Buchmann, 1996).

It has been suggested that only Spironucleus spp. cause systemic infection because they can invade intestinal mucosa and disseminate to other tissues (Siddall et al., 1992). Evidence of systemic spironucleosis was reported in cyprinids and aquarium fishes (Molnár, 1974), and in salmonids (Mo et al., 1990; Poppe et al., 1992; Sterud et al., 1997). In cyprinids, many Spironucleus sp. were found in the gut where they caused reddening of the mucous membrane, brownish-gray discoloration and necrosis of liver, and haemorrhagic enteritis. In aquarium fishes, the parasite has been reported to cause losses in angelfish stock of up to 50% of the population.

While I agree that one may only know what killed their fish with 100% certainty when a proper necropsy is performed, you don't need to be a DVM, and it doesn't take a huge leap of faith, to equate a fish that stops eating, begins excreting white jelly like feces, to a classic case of advanced hex/spiro. According to the experts, Spironucleus vortens IS the organism responsible for the vast majority of "Hexamita" cases in freshwater tropical species of fish.

When placed under stress, a genetically weak fish will succumb to an outbreak of these flagellates far easier, and quicker, than a genetically superior fish placed under the exact same environmental conditions.

Well said...