Has your Flowerhorn ever gotten sick/disease

[FishingOut]

I didn't vote as the only health issues my FH have suffered, is due to the way they were handled before I received them. Once those problems were addressed, I've had zero health issues in my fish. (knock on wood)


While I agree with some of your points, Fishing Out, IMO it's not impractical at all to breed for disease resistance, if as a breeder you actually give a damn about the vigor of your strain of fish. The problem with many large scale commercial breeders is they don't want to cull a fish if it can be sold for a tidy sum of $$$$, and they don't want to put any more effort into their breeding program than they have to. This doesn't just apply to FH. I see this all the time, in numerous species of fish that for one reason or another are in high demand. It's called sloppy breeding.

Best specimens, to the best specimens, by whose standards?

Most breeders that actually have morals, and scruples, and care about their name & the livestock they sell don't define "best" simply by the physical attributes of the fish. Talk to some of the better FH breeders in SE Asia, by trial & error most will be able to tell you what types of breeding will give you a weak & sickly strain of fish, and they will avoid an overdose of that genetic make up in their line breeding programs. Others will breed anything into their line to fix certain popular traits, no matter how much it may introduce unwanted or defective genes. They don't care as they don't care what the results are of breeding outside of their facility. I can understand that, but not if it's at the expense of the very fish that they are selling.

There is absolutely no physiological reason why a FH should "live hard, and die young". None whatsoever. The vast majority of a FH's genetic make up is from CA species that are known to reach 8-10 yrs in captivity, some closer to 15 yrs. IMO there's nothing "ass ugly" about a massive CA cichlid that is approaching 10 yrs of age.

Yet if you peruse many of the threads on sites such a FHcraze, you will find numerous examples of FH under 5 yrs of age that died from sudden unknown reasons, in the hands of experienced fishkeepers - not people whom I would be so quick to judge & refer to as "irresponsible pet owners".

I'm guessing that the OP of this discussion knows how to properly care for his fish, yet months down the road it too suddenly became sick. If not a genetically weak strain of FH, then what? Just a lot of people with very bad luck?

I just recently watched a local discus breeder cull an entire tank full of Malaysian discus ($1,000+), due to the fish being genetically weak specimens that were constantly getting sick from day 1. The rest of his 3500 gallon discus set up is fine, healthy strong fish with no health issues. These fish should have all been culled, not bagged & exported to some poor unsuspecting buyer. But I see this all the time in my biz, where genetically piss poor fish are sold as A+ quality. IME any customer that is dropping hundreds/thousands of $$$ on fish, is most certainly looking for
not just beautiful fish, but fish that are also genetically hard wired for disease resistance.

I can't imagine that anyone plans to buy genetically inferior fish, be it for breeding, or just to keep as pet stock.

While I agree that one may only know what killed their fish with 100% certainty when a proper necropsy is performed, you don't need to be a DVM, and it doesn't take a huge leap of faith, to equate a fish that stops eating, begins excreting white jelly like feces, to a classic case of advanced hex/spiro. According to the experts, Spironucleus vortens IS the organism responsible for the vast majority of "Hexamita" cases in freshwater tropical species of fish.

When placed under stress, a genetically weak fish will succumb to an outbreak of these flagellates far easier, and quicker, than a genetically superior fish placed under the exact same environmental conditions.

Id say most of the time dealing with internal pathogens its going to be Hex, But differenciating between internal parasites/Bacteria and a stomach lining is visual impossible without a microscope and there are many things that can cause a fish not to eat. Im not saying Hex isnt around because it is, But I doubt its the elementry cause of many of flowerhorn deaths.
What makes FH, discus, angel fish so suseptable to Hex? Oscars seem to have the same problem, as well as Green Terrors. There has to be some underlying cause other than just poor water conditions.
BTW, I love old monsters, especially Vieja sp., I was just saying people are more interested in what the fish looks like rather than how disease resistant it is so thats why I said unpractical. Breeding with good quality means not breeding sickly poor quality fish, and only large scale/ unexperienced breeders breed in that fashion. Good breeders have some respect for their name and wont profit off fish that should'nt be sold because their reputation will go downhill. Thats why I always recommend going threw a reputable breeder. I dont even know how you could breed for disease susceptibility. Maybe expose the fish to pathogens and see which ones dont catch it? I dont think thats the way to avoid these problems like Hex.

Best of the best means biggest, strongest, colorful, and dominant. There are no tricks with introducing weak and sickely fish in the blood line and I dont know what breeders you know that use this practice. Obviously genetically weak fish as well as young fish are most likely to surcome to disease. Most causes of genetic mutations are from breeding offspring to parents over generations. There exists a formula somewhere on the net i read that resembles the punnet square to avoid defects. I think if your not breeding the best of batches then your wasting your time. Its all about targeting the quality traits.

Fish die, Thats what they do. If my Horns live until 8 I will be happy. Go into any section here on mfk and even experts lose fish. All I can say is that my FH have all around been healthier than the CA's Ive owned. Probably coincidence, But I think a fish being prone to a pathogen is just an excuse. A fish doesnt live 5 years stable and just go belly up, so whether thats poor genetics or poor husbandry is a mystery to me, because personally my experiences have been the opposite.

 

[RD.]

What makes FH, discus, angel fish so suseptable to Hex? Oscars seem to have the same problem, as well as Green Terrors. There has to be some underlying cause other than just poor water conditions.

Stress. Poor water quality, overcrowding, nutritional inadequacies, etc.
Anything that places a fish under stress can trigger an outbreak of spironucleus. Most researchers support the view that some of these protozoans reside in the intestines of healthy fish (dormant), but can proliferate to harmful numbers under stressful conditions.

Good breeders have some respect for their name and wont profit off fish that should'nt be sold because their reputation will go downhill.

While this is generally true, my experience is that the highest quality fish, often are sold locally, and if their is any crap to be unloaded, it gets shipped overseas. This is especially true when dealing with breeders in SE Asia. The experience with the discus breeder I know & posted about above is a good example. The BEST fish go to countries such as Japan, not to hobbyists in the US or Canada.

I'll give you another classic example. A large very well known Asian aro farm in Malaysia ships a bunch of super reds to Canada that are prepaid for via a group buy order. IOW's you get what you get. But still, these fish aren't cheap, and the farm is very well known for both aros and high quality black stingrays. A local guy ends up with a super red that is anything but super, dropped tail, and curvature of the spine that even a blind person should have caught before it was tagged & bagged. Not only did they export this pathetic piece of deformed garbage, it cost the buyer several hundred $$$ for this fish, with zero recourse.

Do you think that a large scale farm in Malaysia gives a flying fig what some guys in Canada have to say about their fish? The reality is they just made hundreds of $$$ for a fish that should have been tossed out with the garbage. It's that bad, I personally wouldn't own that deformed fish if it was given to me for free.

I see this all the time in the wholesale business as well, certainly not every day, but it happens often enough. Even the best farms, and most well known breeders, unload junk from time to time. And when they do, they make damn sure that it's not in their own back yard.

Best of the best means biggest, strongest, colorful, and dominant. There are no tricks with introducing weak and sickely fish in the blood line and I dont know what breeders you know that use this practice.

What do you think "strongest" equates to? This is precisely what I am talking about, genetically "strong" fish. You seem to be under the illusion that breeders of todays designer fish are breeding with this trait being a high priority - I couldn't disagree more. Not all, but many breeders of designer fish breed for one thing, and one thing only - looks.
If the fish looks great, then it's all good. Many of them don't even cull out the low grade duds, they simply sell them for a much lower price, and off to the LFS they go.

If you are old enough to compare the discus of 30-40 years ago, with much of todays designer discus, you'd know what I mean. Again, a discus should reach at least 7-8 years in captivity, some of the "best" will live 10-15 yrs, yet on one of the most active discus forums on the net I was told by the owner/admin that on average the vast majority of discus only live to 4 yrs of age. WTF? 4 years, and the fish is spent? I don't know what's more pathetic, the fact that these fish are dieing at such early ages, or the fact that discus keepers now accept this as the norm.

FH are no different than any other designer fish, in order to fix the most desirable traits, in as little time as humanly possible, some serious line breeding has to take place. Line breeding is nothing more than controlled (maybe?) inbreeding, and in a sloppy breeding program recessive genes can start to pile up. You won't see this with the naked eye, any more than you will see excessive fat deposit surrounding a fishes liver from an improper diet, but it's there, and when a fish such as this comes under stress - BAM, you suddenly have got a very seriously ill fish on your hands.

I think that many hobbyists would be shocked if they visited places such as Thailand, and saw the conditions that many of these FH are raised, and bred. You won't find too many FH flying solo in 75-90 gallon tanks, a lot of the fish will have worms (nematodes) and many will already be carrying the hex/spiro pathogen as well.

Also, in many cases these fish have already been exposed to antibiotics and/or other various meds, in many cases to the extent that their immune systems have already been compromised.

When used improperly flagellates/pathogens can also build up a resistance to many medications, and many meds can also have a direct negative effect on the health of the fish. While Metronidazole has always been the drug of choice when combating internal parasites such as hexamita/spironucleus, metro (or any other type of medication) should never be used on a regular basis as a prophylactic, and doing so may cause flagellates/parasites to develop a resistance to the medication, and possibly even mutate and become super bugs.

It's also been stated by at least one researcher that excessive use of metronidazole can cause organ damage in fish.

"In fish, an excessive use of metronidazole can damage kidneys and other internal organs.(Bassleer, 1983)"

The same applies to many of the "better" medications on the market. Save the fish, but at what cost - fried organs?


I think that an interesting poll would be to compare FH bred in North America, to those that are bred & imported from overseas. The results might be interesting.

A fish doesnt live 5 years stable and just go belly up, so whether thats poor genetics or poor husbandry is a mystery to me, because personally my experiences have been the opposite.

Not to single you out, but exactly what is your experience with raising and/or breeding flowerhorns? Other than the 2 FH you currently own, have you owned others, and if so to what age did they live to? Got any pics? I'm being serious, not trying to attack you in any way so please don't take it that way.

I don't think that it's fair to dismiss what has been discussed or questioned by many other FH keepers, based on ones personal experience with a couple of fish.