Help me set-up my DREAM tank!

[CharlieTuna]

Well I'm not going to claim to be the expert on socks vs foam as I do not have any practical experience with this stuff yet, just lots of research on this forum and others to base my decisions on. I also have quite a bit of experience with commercially made wet/dry filters. Stephan at Swiss Tropicals (Poret foam dealer) was a big help with foam selection and viability of my sump design. IMO, socks will require too much maintenance, weekly cleaning, no thanks!

My design; I'm at work so I cannot post pics, but will describe best I can. I have a few pictures up on my tank build thread http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=363133 Water will enter from the overflows into an area in the sump approximately 6" wide, then will flow through Poret foam. The Poret will be the same size as the inside of the tank I'm using for a sump, less a 1/2" or so on top to serve as an emergency overflow. At Stephan's suggestion, I will use 2 - 3" thick 20ppi pieces of foam vs one 4" thick piece. He tells me the 3" is easier to clean plus I can service one piece at a time, moving forward the second piece and cleaning the front one. This will make cleaning easy and still preserve bio bacteria. After the Poret, water will over overflow onto a drip tray, through Syn-Fill media (also from Swiss Tropical), through another piece of Poret, 2" thick 30ppi for this piece, and then trickle to my bio media. I'm going to use Seachem Pond Matrix. Simple design, should work out well -- I hope.

I do see a potential problem with your sump design, I do not think your water level will be higher then your baffles. From the way I'm understanding what you are doing, you are going to have a lot of unused sump volume. IMO, one should utilize as much sump water volume as possible while still allowing reserve area for overflow during a power outage. Also, if you go with Herbie's, you will need an emergency overflow in addition to the main.

 

[jcardona1]

but I think it will be way less maintenance and better mechanical filtering than socks and will provide some bio too.

I highly doubt that. Filter socks can be purchased down to 1 micron ratings. That is pretty much the clearest water you can physically get, period, end of story. A diatom filter filters out particles down to 1 micron. No piece of foam will ever do that.

As for flow, one 7x16" sock can handle all your flow, and then some. According to McMaster, a 7x16" sock can handle flow rates 100gpm, or 6,000gph

 

[jcardona1]

I do see a potential problem with your sump design, I do not think your water level will be higher then your baffles.

Yeah it will. If he adds more water the sump, the water level will rise in all chambers. The minumum water level however, will be based on that very last baffle.

This is why in my sumps I use no dividers or baffles. They're aren't necessary when using submerged media.

 

[Coues]

Yeah it will. If he adds more water the sump, the water level will rise in all chambers. The minumum water level however, will be based on that very last baffle.

This is why in my sumps I use no dividers or baffles. They're aren't necessary when using submerged media.

^^^ Jose nailed it. The only thing I am worried about in this sump is if I put foam in that area at the first baffle it might back up. But I can just cut a notch in the top of the baffle so it can just flow over the top. I agree the baffles aren't really needed, but the sump came that way so it is what it is. If anything else it can act as a divider if I want to put fish down there as a growout.

 

[Coues]

As for flow, one 7x16" sock can handle all your flow, and then some. According to McMaster, a 7x16" sock can handle flow rates 100gpm, or 6,000gph

Good to know! A friend in town said he had to clean his socks (7x16's) every 2 days, which seemed excessive. I plan on stocking with cichla, dats, maybe coupe cats like a tig or tsn. How many do you think I will need with a fairly heavily stocked tank and only have to clean them once a week?

 

[Dan F]

Good to know! A friend in town said he had to clean his socks (7x16's) every 2 days, which seemed excessive. I plan on stocking with cichla, dats, maybe coupe cats like a tig or tsn. How many do you think I will need with a fairly heavily stocked tank and only have to clean them once a week?

How often you have to clean the socks depends on size and micron rating.

I use a single 7x16 sock on each of my two bigger (210 and 135) tanks.

The 210 flows about 1400 GPH. With a 200 micron sock I can go a week between changes, but it is pretty close to clogged after 7 days. I tried a 50 micron sock and it only lasts one or two days before it overflows. I will be switching to a double 7x16 200 micron setup as soon as my new socks arrive.

The 135 (which also has a 55 and a 25 on the same drain) flows about 700 GPH. With a 200 micron sock it could probably make it almost two weeks, but I change it weekly. The 50 micron clogs after 2-3 days.

I would recommend doing two socks if you can fit them in there, it should give you a good solid week between cleanings.

By the way, I agree with CharlieTuna about using gate valves rather than ball valves to constrict flow. A ball valve does not have very much precision - they go from full open to full closed with only 1/4 turn of the handle, while a gate valve takes several full turns from open to closed. This makes it much better for fine-tuning the restriction.

 

[jcardona1]

Dan covered it well, on size and frequency of sock changing. If you can fit two 7x16" socks, that would be ideal. The more you can fit, the better. More surface area = more filtering, less frequent cleaning.

On the gate valves, maybe I'm thinking of something else. Don't gate valves operate like knife valves? Aquatic Eco says this about their gate valves:

Gate valves are best suited to full open or full closed operation.

http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/805/PVC-Gate-Valves-Slip/gate%20valve/0

How do these work? Do you turn the handle to close the valve? Or push it up/down like a knife valve?

I think what you really want is a globe valve, much like what is on your garden hose attachment. But they can be hard to find in bigger sizes: http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/1586/Globe-Valves/globe valve/0

I found some big globe valves here, but they are stupid expensive http://www.mcmaster.com/#globe-valves/=b9y5zi

 

[jcardona1]

Ok yeah I just remembered what gate valves look like. They seem like they would be perfect for fine tuning, but I wonder why Aquatic Eco says they are meant for open or closed operation only? Can you damage the valve?

Here's some good prices on PVC gate valves: http://www.mcmaster.com/#gate-valves/=b9y7rc

 

[Dan F]

Ok yeah I just remembered what gate valves look like. They seem like they would be perfect for fine tuning, but I wonder why Aquatic Eco says they are meant for open or closed operation only? Can you damage the valve?

Here's some good prices on PVC gate valves: http://www.mcmaster.com/#gate-valves/=b9y7rc

You are correct that globe valves are preferred for throttling, but they cost over double the price of a gate valve.

There are a couple reasons I found that gate valves are not really meant for throttling - I had to go on an engineering forum to find them. First, the gate can be slightly loose in its channel, which can cause chattering in a partially closed position. Second, eddies/vortices can erode the sealing edge of the gate, causing them to not seal fully. Both of these reasons are only really applicable in high pressure systems. The fact is that we are talking about pressures in the single digits.

 

[jcardona1]

You are correct that globe valves are preferred for throttling, but they cost over double the price of a gate valve.

There are a couple reasons I found that gate valves are not really meant for throttling - I had to go on an engineering forum to find them. First, the gate can be slightly loose in its channel, which can cause chattering in a partially closed position. Second, eddies/vortices can erode the sealing edge of the gate, causing them to not seal fully. Both of these reasons are only really applicable in high pressure systems. The fact is that we are talking about pressures in the single digits.

Thanks for the info. I was planning on using gate valves at first, but I didn't when I read this note. On my small tank I used a 1" garden hose valve (basically a gate valve right?), which works perfect. Now I need to swap out the main valve on my Beananimal overflow, since these are much better than a regular ball valve.

Found them even cheaper on Amazon. 1.5" PVC gate valve for $14