How did we get the super red severum?

[dogofwar]

I asked because does it matter how they're produced as to whether people would keep them or not.

If it turned out that fish bred to produce them were different species (vs. a mutation of a single species line bred for generations to look more and more different than wild-type fish), would people quit keeping them?

Matt

Why does it matter?

 

[darth pike]

Yes, many people see line bred as differant than species hybrids and while may keep line breds, draw the line at hybrids.

 

[peathenster]

I asked because does it matter how they're produced as to whether people would keep them or not.

If it turned out that fish bred to produce them were different species (vs. a mutation of a single species line bred for generations to look more and more different than wild-type fish), would people quit keeping them?

Matt

that's an interesting question - you are asking if people are against the idea of keeping hybrids, or against the actual fish.

I can't see myself giving up my super red. I've had him for 1.5 years now and grown quite attached to him....so maybe it's a good thing we don't know where they are

 

[dogofwar]

That's really the point of my question: So if the fish are determined to technically be hybrids..is the fish any less attractive or desireable...especially since it's already bred to be completely different than what's found in the wild?

I personally find the imaginary line between crossing "sports" of one species with one or more geographic variants of the same species in order to produce a fish that appeals to man's aesthetic values (line breeding) and crossing different, closely related species to produce a fish that appeals to man's aesthetic values (intentional hybridization and probably line breeding) to be less "bright" than others find it to be.

Especially when changes in taxonomy (e.g. convicts turning into 4+ "species") and better description of poorly described groups of fish can turn "line bred" fish into hybrids without changes to the fish themselves.

Super red sevs are cool, attractive fish...that are really different than wild sevs (of any species). They are what they are - so why would it matter how they're made???

Matt

that's an interesting question - you are asking if people are against the idea of keeping hybrids, or against the actual fish.

I can't see myself giving up my super red. I've had him for 1.5 years now and grown quite attached to him....so maybe it's a good thing we don't know where they are

 

[ryansmith83]

What are the chances that they're hormoned like discus? Is there anyone spawning these fish who've shown pictures of the fry development? Is there proof that they're naturally this red as very young fish?

When I purchased mine at 2" they were already fully spotted. It is unusual for most juvenile SA cichlids to have adult coloration/spotting at 2" in size. Greens, rotkiels, and notatus are plain brown with bars, and young golds look solid yellow/white. Most don't show any spots or coloring until they're older. I guess they could be selectively line-bred fish, but I still have my doubts.

I've also noticed, just from looking at pictures here and elsewhere on the net, that the super reds tend to have shorter (from nose to tail) bodies, and sometimes appear stubby and stocky. By comparison, my wild notatus and tank-raised greens look very long-bodied next to my super red male.

Just my 0.02.

 

[Snowflake311]

Because I want to know. I also like to know what type of dogs were bred to what to make say a Doberman.

I'm thinking of getting a super red and just want to know what people think. Genetics has always been something I have had an interest in. I find it interesting. What's wrong with asking about it?

 

[Snowflake311]

What are the chances that they're hormoned like discus? Is there anyone spawning these fish who've shown pictures of the fry development? Is there proof that they're naturally this red as very young fish?

When I purchased mine at 2" they were already fully spotted. It is unusual for most juvenile SA cichlids to have adult coloration/spotting at 2" in size. Greens, rotkiels, and notatus are plain brown with bars, and young golds look solid yellow/white. Most don't show any spots or coloring until they're older. I guess they could be selectively line-bred fish, but I still have my doubts.

I've also noticed, just from looking at pictures here and elsewhere on the net, that the super reds tend to have shorter (from nose to tail) bodies, and sometimes appear stubby and stocky. By comparison, my wild notatus and tank-raised greens look very long-bodied next to my super red male.

Just my 0.02.

Good point.
I have read that some "severums" are dyed But no sure if it is ture.

 

[craig_uk]

Morning All.

A topic actually quite close to my heart.

Super reds came about a good while ago (10 years as memory serves) and, as said above, are a line bred varient of golds.

The real question is "Where did gold severums come from?"

The first hurdle we've got to clear (and its a pretty big one) is that no severum has ever been recorded in the wild, as being golden. (or if it has, it hasn't survived, or been collected etc)

The heros family dont seem to show any tendancy to produce luthistic or albino offspring (im sure its possible, but i've never seen or heard of one, and im pretty sure that such a fish would be exploited by the trade)

Now, lets say a luthistic severum was found, and bred on a commercial basis. The genes would be recessive, so unless the gene pool was constantly refreshed with unrelated "yellow" severums, the liniage would die out.

Lets rule out the possibility (not saying its impossible, but unlikely) for the moment and look at other members of the Heroine tribe.

Amphilophus labiatus - The True Red Devil - In its natural form, shows a distinct yellow/orange colour, and should, theoretically share similar genetics to severums, perhaps just enough to make cross hybridization possible.

This would go a long way to explaining away the, frankly, un-severum like colours of the gold morph, as well as the hit and miss fertility, and the availability and robust health of most gold severums. (It's going to be a damn sight easier to breed two commonly available species then it is to breed 2 luthistic freak occurances (look at EBJDs' and their rather frail health compared to their normal counterparts - I have never seen a gold sev that seemed any more prone to illness then a green)

Based on the fact that Gold sevs often display very little of the characteristics of their green counterparts (the final, full stress bar before the tale, a single black dot in the anal and dorsal fin etc. Common in all examples of Heros) i think we're looking at something a little more then line breeding.

Im of the personal opinion that Golds are a full blown hybrid, and that most of the bog standard golds are only a couple of generations down the line (i know a good % of them come from the far east) as they dont seem to show any of the draw backs of heavily line bred fish.

That said, like Peathster says, unless you've got a couple of grand you'd like the burn, we're very unlikely to find out for sure, and its all going to come down to personal opinion and guess work. (unless anyone fancys risking their red devils with then green sevs?)

I've got access to both species wild forms, and i wont be trying it any time soon ;-)

Just my tuppence.
Craig

 

[jgentry]

That's really the point of my question: So if the fish are determined to technically be hybrids..is the fish any less attractive or desireable...especially since it's already bred to be completely different than what's found in the wild?

I personally find the imaginary line between crossing "sports" of one species with one or more geographic variants of the same species in order to produce a fish that appeals to man's aesthetic values (line breeding) and crossing different, closely related species to produce a fish that appeals to man's aesthetic values (intentional hybridization and probably line breeding) to be less "bright" than others find it to be.

Especially when changes in taxonomy (e.g. convicts turning into 4+ "species") and better description of poorly described groups of fish can turn "line bred" fish into hybrids without changes to the fish themselves.

Super red sevs are cool, attractive fish...that are really different than wild sevs (of any species). They are what they are - so why would it matter how they're made???

Matt

It wouldn't matter either way to me. I have a super red and I'm not worried about what it is. I'm certainly interested to find out how it was bred but that knowledge wouldn't change my opinion on keeping them or not. Besides, probably a large % of sevs sold in stores are hybrids of several different severum lines.


Craig, I've heard the theory of golds coming from a RD or Cit cross before. I can see were people could and would think that. Personally I do not see that though. There are basically no characteristics of amphilophus in the gold severum line to me. I guess it's possible that they were crossed and then several generations were selectively bred to to look more like severums. But there are many things not explained. Why would they not peel like other amphilophus crosses, why are they shaped exactly like they severums, dispite there lower fertility they are still very easy to bred and they are all over the market so it's certainly not real challenging. Why would you not get a mix of colors like you would with amphilophus? I think there are way to many things that are unexplained to assume they are crossed with amphilophus to get the color and that is why they are not as weak. Plus to me they have always been a touch weaker then wild types. To me there fins seem to fray a touch easier which almost always common with line bred fish. The fin thing might just be my limited experience with them though. I have only kept a couple of them.

That's the issue with the asian breeding programs, they are making money off there secrets and they plan to keep it that way.

 

[peathenster]

Perhaps this question is better suited for the hybrid board but, for all the people that have successfully crossed severums to Amphilophus or any other species, what did you get?