How Important Is Bio Media?

[brianp]

Quoted from Seachem’s website here - http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Matrix.html

Each liter of Matrix™ provides as much surface (>~700 m2) as 170 liters of plastic balls!

1 liter is 61 cubic inches…
700 square meters is 1, 085, 002 square inches…

So that’s 17,787 square inches of surface area per cubic inch…
Compared to the claim of 104 square inches per cubic inch with bio balls…

I am very confident in my claim that Seachem’s Martix does not have 17,787 square inches of surface area per cubic inch that is readily available for bacteria to grow on and engage in a chemical exchange with our water…

I think the over viewing the above details makes the obvious answer to this question… Yes, we being misled by claims of theoretical surface areas… or at least those of us who believe the media manufacturers are…



In addition to being mislead there… Based on ample personal experience with fairly heavy stock loads… in aquariums with ample water movement… yet with no “Bio Media” (meaning specialized media for housing bacteria)… typical levels of décor (décor supplies surface area)… and simple sponge media…

Once mature, I find such systems to maintain zero ammonia & zero nitrites while building nitrates… with no measurable spikes… provided stocking is kept consistent…

Which has lead me to believe that with proper water movement in the system, far fewer square inches of bacteria are actually required/used in keeping our ammonia * nitrite in check…

I know that some of these numbers sound incredible (and maybe they are), but you should not underestimate the dramatic increase in surface area which can occur when you introduce pores, furrows and other types of surface imperfections. For example, look at the human brain. There was a need to pack additional nervous tissue into the cranium and it was accomplished by adding folds to the organ. The cranium could only be so large or we would be tipping over.

BTW...I am enjoying this interaction.

 

[tcarswell]

I know that some of these numbers sound incredible (and maybe they are), but you should not underestimate the dramatic increase in surface area which can occur when you introduce pores, furrows and other types of surface imperfections. For example, look at the human brain. There was a need to pack additional nervous tissue into the cranium and it was accomplished by adding folds to the organ. The cranium could only be so large or we would be tipping over.

BTW...I am enjoying this interaction.

You guys are speaking the truth! Interesting conversation. I am curious about the bio wheels as well and their surface area..

 

[Toby_H]

I’m glad your enjoying it Brian and I am not ‘debating’ in any kind of argumentative mood… We’re all exploring, learning and exercising our intelligence here…

Considering terms of surface area… and considering coating it with bacteria…

In order to create 17,750+ square inches of surface area within 1 cubic inch of space… The pores would have to be very narrow. Building on that idea…

If we were to take a flat surface… and add one narrow hole to it… then allow bacteria to grow over the flat surface… Question - What diameter hole would the bacteria simply bridge over, as opposed to layering the surface of? As if the bacteria 'bridges' the hole, it has removed any "surface area' contained within that hole from the usable surface area...



Keep in mind I’m a math guy… and have worked in the Engineering field for many years… But I just cannot wrap my brain around this ratio of 17,787 square inches of surface area within 1 cubic inch…

That is almost 35 square inches of surface area inside a 1/8” cube…

That is 1 square inch of surface area within a 1/26th inch cube... a 1/26" cube is smaller than 1 sq millimeter…


I just can’t bring myself to accept that IF (big if) a material was porous enough to contain 17,787 square inches of surface area per cubic inch… that more than a small fraction of this surface area would be able to be coated with bacteria (due to the bridging principal referenced above)… Also, with the capillaries/pores of this material being so excessively small, I do not believe that water would be able to “flow" in contact with any more than a very small fraction of this surface area…

Therefore I conclude, whether or not they can justify that their media has such extreme amounts of surface area per volume… The vast majority of this surface area will not be able to house bacteria that will regularly come in contact with flowing water…



Now if, by some chance, this is simply beyond my comprehension and 17,787 square inches of surface area per cubic inch can house bactera… and water can flow past every bit of it… Isn’t it completely logical that the slightest amount of waste in the media would begin to drastically clog these pores cutting off thousands of square inches of surface area? Isn’t it logical that when those square inches are suddenly clogged, and therefore cut off from water flow, the bacteria on those surface would die, or otherwise not be functioning. Therefore wouldn’t even small amounts of waste, debris, or filter sludge commonly cause spikes in ammonia or nitrite? Or mini cycles?

…But that doesn't happen… which supports my claim that media manufacturers are grossly misleading us as to the amount of surface area readily available to house bacteria in their media…

 

[Toby_H]

I've been neglecting commenting on the Bio Wheels hoping to keep this thread more about the principals of "Bio Filtration" and "Bio Media"... as opposed to individual forms of either... But once a thread is started it becomes it's own creature

Bio Wheels work... and the key to their success is the same principals taken advantage of in the concept of a Wet Dry filter… Elevated oxygen levels…

Simply 'floating' them will not keep moistened bacteria in (almost) constant contact with air (elevated oxygen), and they will therefore become drastically less effective...

Allowing the wheel to become clogged and stop rotating, will cause them to become drastically less effective.

The fiber medium used, has large surface area, yet no where's near as large as Matrix and similar products 'claim' to be. Instead it's surface area could be bettered compared to that of filter fiber (quilt stuffing). A bio wheel floating or not spinning would be (approx) as effective of a “Bio Media” as the same quantity of filter fiber…

In conclusion... if you can keep the Bio Wheels turning, although they will not house an extraordinary amount of bacteria, they will provide a very conducive environment for bacteria to colonize and thrive.

I am suggesting that not nearly as many square inches of bacteria is in use as most believe... therefore if my theory is correct, when spinning, Bio Wheels are an excellent form of "Bio Filtration".

 

[sostoudt]

guys ive heard the matrix packaging states:
Each liter of matrix provides over 160,000cm2 (170 sq ft) of surface, equivalent to over 40L (10 US gallons) of typical plastic ball media!

this is a question asked on the seachem forum
http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?t=2815&highlight=matrix
judging on the response i think the 170 liters of bioballs statement is wrong.


but im asking it, best to go to the source, i also mentioned your question nc.

 

[Freezekougra]

I've been neglecting commenting on the Bio Wheels hoping to keep this thread more about the principals of "Bio Filtration" and "Bio Media"... as opposed to individual forms of either... But once a thread is started it becomes it's own creature

Bio Wheels work... and the key to their success is the same principals taken advantage of in the concept of a Wet Dry filter… Elevated oxygen levels…

Simply 'floating' them will not keep moistened bacteria in (almost) constant contact with air (elevated oxygen), and they will therefore become drastically less effective...

Allowing the wheel to become clogged and stop rotating, will cause them to become drastically less effective.

The fiber medium used, has large surface area, yet no where's near as large as Matrix and similar products 'claim' to be. Instead it's surface area could be bettered compared to that of filter fiber (quilt stuffing). A bio wheel floating or not spinning would be (approx) as effective of a “Bio Media” as the same quantity of filter fiber…

In conclusion... if you can keep the Bio Wheels turning, although they will not house an extraordinary amount of bacteria, they will provide a very conducive environment for bacteria to colonize and thrive.

I am suggesting that not nearly as many square inches of bacteria is in use as most believe... therefore if my theory is correct, when spinning, Bio Wheels are an excellent form of "Bio Filtration".

If I decided to float stuff, what would you suggest I use?

Thanks

 

[Toby_H]

We both posted in Seachem's forum linked above... I'm interested to see how they respond...

If I decided to float stuff, what would you suggest I use?

My argument from the begining is that we do not need special "Bio Media" and that using typical mechanical filtration, typical decorations and proper water movement bio filtration is accounted for...

Therefore you do not need to float anything...

 

[brianp]

"I’m glad your enjoying it Brian and I am not ‘debating’ in any kind of argumentative mood… We’re all exploring, learning and exercising our intelligence here…"
Didn't mean to suggest otherwise.

E.coli have a diameter of 0.5 um and are slightly longer (don't know about those involved in the nitrogen cycle). If they grow in a monolayer, then it would take two, side-by-side to bridge a 1 um furrow or pore. However, in electron micrographs of pumice granules (aka Matrix), I've seen both monolayers and clumps.

To be honest, I have never paid any attention to the specific numbers provided by any company. I simply went with a particle whose composition and shape I felt would be optimized for supporting bacterial growth and facilitating a uniform flow of water through the particle bed. Much of the surface area fills with sediment and surface area is lost and the uniform movement of water through the bed will also minimize this effect. These companies can provide whatever theoretical sa numbers they wish, but when these particles are placed into a filter, under many different, individual conditions, you never know with any degree of certainty what the functional sa actually is.

 

[sostoudt]

We both posted in Seachem's forum linked above... I'm interested to see how they respond...





My argument from the begining is that we do not need special "Bio Media" and that using typical mechanical filtration, typical decorations and proper water movement bio filtration is accounted for...

Therefore you do not need to float anything...

the website is right is there response

 

[sostoudt]

also the link they gave stated that part of the surface area in matrix is to small to be biologically useful, but still may be used chemically or physical.

as far as what physically mean i have no clue unless it functions as mechanical filtration

basically matrix is different because the pores arent just pores theres structure with in the pores

ill let you tackle the last couple pages since they seem heavily involved in math, and your the math guy(i hate math after calc) .