How long can cryptosporidium live on a surface?

[Hybridfish7]

So to put it short, I just want to know how long cryptosporidium can live on a surface without a host.
google hasn't really helped, and the only thing I can find is that it lives 'a few years'.
I'm talking about the one for lizards.
if you don't know cryptosporidium, you might just know it as stick tail. if you don't know either... well here it is.
It's a parasite that is basically the grim reaper of your lizard. it infects them when they have poor husbandry or have come into contact with the waste or bodily fluids of another infected reptile. it is impossible to cure, but possible to treat... and it kills in a few weeks to months. I don't think most people would be devoted to having to get a sick gecko medicine for the next decade or two, all while risking cross contamination with other geckos.

this disease is
1. the reason I don't go to petco. all their geckos have it pretty much, and they just treat it as a finicky gecko that won't eat. they also keep their geckos on sand and heat lamps. even petsmart (or at least the ones I've been to) have enough sense to keep them on something that they can't ingest like reptile carpet or paper towel.
2. the reason I wash my hands before I work with my geckos, and same goes for if I touch anything outside their tank when working with them.
3. what killed my 2 of my geckos.
I've had 7 geckos. only 3 are alive.
Moon, Sun, Nova, Saturn, Mochi, Kenji, and Pluto.
the green marks that they are alive.

Moon- my first leopard gecko, who I got in 5th grade. I didn't do enough research on her care, she got sick and died after a year. something was always wrong with her, she never grew an inch with me and was never a good eater. Moon didn't show signs of illness until a few weeks after sun's death.

Sun- my second gecko. got her around the same time as the first. she lived with Moon, got amoeba and died after a few months (I tried to treat her but it was too late). I'm not sure if it was amoeba or crypto, most likely amoeba because (somewhere I read on amoeba) in a later stage of illness, the cloaca would get covered in feces...

Nova- a fat tailed gecko. of course I didn't put her with Moon, I was smarter than that. I didn't want her to get sick. I knew how to take care of her and she was doing well. What I didn't know about was cross contamination.
one day I started feeding with tweezers. what I forgot was that I used those tweezers for my other geckos before, too.
Nova got sick within a few days and died after a week or two of home treatment, before I got a chance to take her to the vet.

Saturn- almost an impulse buy... I went to my local pet store, (a really good place, they take great care of their animals and especially the reptiles.) because I saw a fat tailed gecko on their website. I go and ask about it, and they say that the website hadn't been update in a few weeks. (they haven't updated it since for some reason.)
So my mom goes to say that I wanted another gecko, and I came for a replacement. They say I can special order it and they'll get it in for me. I had the chance to get anything... so I asked for a blizzard leopard gecko, and they said they'd get it in within a week.
a month passes, and they give me a call, saying they got a new shipment of geckos, with some blizzards.
I go to get it... they weren't the prettiest little things, but they were blizzards. I just went with the nice looking super hypo with the bright orange head. ever since she's been a great eater, and pretty fat too. she'll be coming up on 2 years soon.
here's the only baby picture I could get of her... a screenshot from an old video.

Mochi- my first crested gecko. I did 7 months worth of research on crested geckos and their care... I got it at a reptile expo. He was doing well, being good with handling and eating. then as winter came, he started getting sluggish. I did everything I could to keep him warm, which got the point of just keeping him next to the heat vent. (which never got past 76F for some reason.) on new years eve, unknown to me, the thermostat was turned down during the new year's party... which was basically pulling the plug for the little guy. He started to slow down, I started to freak out, and he died the next day.

kenji- (strong healthy second son in japanese, I always thought saturn was male.) I got him for my birthday last year (he didn't come in a gift box, I just got him cuz I had an empty tank and it was my birthday.). He's the one that I think is a different species. I bought him as a snow. just a snow, from my local pet store. he was tiny as a baby, but surprisingly reached 7 inches in 5 months of having him. (the magic of mealworms)

pluto doesn't really have too much of a story yet, but all I can say is I got lucky with getting him. At the reptile expo I go to, not many people are even breeding leopard geckos anymore...
I'll list the frequencies of the more popular animals there:
1. ball pythons
2. hognose snakes
3. bearded dragons
4. crested geckos
5. frogs
6. chameleons
7. axolotls
8. various other pythons
9. large lizards like monitors and tegus
10. leopard geckos and other geckos with eyelids.
I got lucky with pluto. a lone, $85, 2 month old amelanistic fat tailed gecko.
the seller was extremely nice, and I'd still be thanking him if I talked to him again.
Originally I wasn't going to be allowed to get the gecko since I had nowhere to put it, and wasn't going to be buying another tank with all the stuff.
I told the guy I didn't have a cage, and he told me he'd get me the cage, gecko, and everything I needed for the tank for $100.
My parents let me, and the seller got me a 10 gallon tank with a heat mat and a lid. I didn't get any hides or anything, for the moment.
and that's why pluto only has foam coffee cups for hides and a waterbowl. he doesn't even use his waterbowl, he just drinks off the walls when I mist the tank.

In moon's lifetime, I slowly learned how to take care of her and my other geckos.
each of the geckos she lived alongside taught me lessons...
Moon taught me about proper husbandry with leos... how to feed correctly, proper heating, proper feeding supplements, and most importantly, crypto. moon also taught me (on a more superstitious level) not to say that my geckos were healthy... I'd always say moon was healthy, especially after she recovered from the same sickness as sun. (I left out that she also got sick but quickly recovered.) she always looked to be a good weight, so I always said she was healthy. I started actually talking to people about her, and calling her "healthy", she started showing signs of crypto. now I'm (stupidly) scared of calling my geckos "healthy" in fear that the same might happen.
Sun taught me that
1. I shouldn't really house leo's together
and 2. how to spot/when to treat illnesses. nova also taught me this when she slowly stopped eating.
Nova taught me about cross contamination. She's the reason I'm strict with disinfecting everything I use with my geckos.
I'm sad that these poor geckos had to die. At least they helped me learn how to properly take care of the ones I have today.

All the geckos I have are under simple care:
at least 2-3 hides, cool and warm.
under tank heaters
diets of calcium dusted mealworms/crickets, as well as a calcium dish. saturn and pluto don't have calcium dishes but I pour a small pile of calcium in saturn's cage from time to time and she licks it all up within about a week. I also don't intent to feed pluto crickets that often.
I refill their water every few days. I only clean the whole bowl itself every few weeks, but saturn's been fine with that for the past (nearly) 2 years.
I spot clean their cages every week or so.
I also wash my hands:
- before feeding/cleaning/handling
- after cleaning the gecko's poop
- touching anything outside the tank in fear that the surface might have some trace of the past geckos, even though they never came into direct/indirect contact with these surfaces.
-going between geckos, mostly just switching between pluto and my adult geckos in fear that it might have a european-native american type thing where the adults have some disease they're strong and immune to that the baby might get sick with. (if the first part made no sense, well when the europeans came to america, they brought diseases they were used to but the natives weren't and the natives got sick and many died.)
I'm just wondering how long crypto lives on surfaces in any case that any are on anything in this house.
it's been 3 years since I had moon and I got rid of all her stuff. I also moved.
Last night I sleepwalked... and messed up my poor baby gecko's cage.
pluto is fine, but when I woke up his warm hide was upside down on the other side of his cage and he was in the back shaking a bit...
I washed off all his stuff cuz I know sleeping me didn't wash his hands before messing with pluto.
is there any chance he can get infected cuz of this?
I read that crypto can't be transmitted with casual contact. Then again people have touched saturn without washing their hands, and she's still alive.

 

[Hybridfish7]

Also a bit more story on moon-
I got her from petco.
At first I kept her with one hide, a heat lamp, and only fed her 5 undusted crickets every day.
I started learning more about leos, and started giving her calcium/vitamins and more crickets. I later got a heat pad, but stuck it on the side instead of under because my mom didn't want it to burn the shelf the tank was on. still heated the gecko and she still digested food.
I still only cleaned the whole tank once a week and didn't clean water that often and all that...

 

[NathanKS]

Alright, there is a lot to take in on this post so excuse me for only answering the main questions.

crypto spores will likely last decades which is why it is so important to keep them out

very very unlikely this gecko will be infected because of this. Crypto is generally spread through poop and unless you happened to touch infected poop you should be ok.

I should also point out that chlorine (bleach) is not super effective at killing crypto, use an organic disinfectant like Roccal.

 

[Hybridfish7]

good, thank you. I haven't come into contact with any crypto infected poop in 3 years, or even ever, I always wrapped it in a paper towel and used gloves.
My trash can downstairs may still have some traces though.
how about the trash can outside? where all the trash goes... that probably has so much of it on it. or does it get washed off in natural ways since it usually sits outside?
also I'm going to build some hides for y baby fat tailed gecko... out of wood. any good things to disinfect the wood with for this? just in case there is anything on it? (not just crypto)
also anything to waterproof it? as you may know, fat tailed geckos need higher humidity.

 

[NathanKS]

the spores, being exposed to the elements, will most likely die.

bake it, an epoxy can be used to waterproof it but they're ineffective. instead choose a harder wood like oak that will resist the moisture for a longer period.

 

[Hybridfish7]

That's the thing... I already have the plywood for building it.
any chemicals I should look for in the disinfectants I have that kill crypto?

 

[NathanKS]

5% hydrogen peroxide soaks for lengths greater then 20 minutes are the CDC's recommended treatment.

Boiling water can also be used.

 

[Hybridfish7]

I think I'll go with boiling water.
I usually wash my reptiles' stuff with extremely hot water.

 

[Deadliestviper7]

I think I'll go with boiling water.
I usually wash my reptiles' stuff with extremely hot water.

Glad u use different tools for different pets,I do this with many tanks,and usually keep the tools under/next to said tank so they don't get mixed by accident

 

[Viridis]

As NathanKS mentioned, there's a lot here, so I'll take this bit by bit.

Yellow in your quotes is me shortening things so this isn't a super long reply.

So to put it short, I just want to know how long cryptosporidium can live on a surface without a host.
google hasn't really helped, and the only thing I can find is that it lives 'a few years'.

This depends on the strain/species.
This paper says C.parvum can survive for a year in low-turbidity water and several months outside of a mammalian host. I know it's not the herp spp., but it gives you a rough idea. This site claims 18 months.

I'm talking about the one for lizards.

if you don't know cryptosporidium, you might just know it as stick tail. if you don't know either... well here it is.
It's a parasite that is basically the grim reaper of your lizard. it infects them when they have poor husbandry or have come into contact with the waste or bodily fluids of another infected reptile. it is impossible to cure, but possible to treat... and it kills in a few weeks to months. I don't think most people would be devoted to having to get a sick gecko medicine for the next decade or two, all while risking cross contamination with other geckos.

First, there are two types of Crypto(sporidium) that infects both wild and captive (2,3) non-avian reptiles; well, possibly more, but we'll focus on these two; Cryptosporidium serpentis, C. varanii (syn. C. saurophilum). These are not zoonotic, and do not affect humans (some mammal spp. will though!). C. parvum and a couple other species are found when testing snake feces, but it's from the mammals that they are eating.

While mostly spread through feces, it can also be spread through water and food, so using bowls, food, supplies, &c. between cages, especially with a new or known infected animal is a HUGE no-no. This is why i bowl feed all species (that aren't tong fed like snakes and monitors) in disposable cups. This way insects aren't eating feces, and bowls are thrown out/destroyed when dirty.

Unlike in healthy humans, Crypto is not self-limiting in snakes/lizards. It could take upto 2 years in snakes, though like you mentioned, usually less in lizards.

Usually humane euthenasia is the best option followed by sterilizing it's surroundings, especiall if one has a sizeable collection. You can send a sample to a lab for testing, but I'm not sure on the U.S. laws/protocols on shipping something possibly contaminated with something like Crypto. Best to do that through a vet.

this disease is
1. the reason I don't go to petco. all their geckos have it pretty much, and they just treat it as a finicky gecko that won't eat. they also keep their geckos on sand and heat lamps. even petsmart (or at least the ones I've been to) have enough sense to keep them on something that they can't ingest like reptile carpet or paper towel.
2. the reason I wash my hands before I work with my geckos, and same goes for if I touch anything outside their tank when working with them.
3. what killed my 2 of my geckos.

1. I'm not a huge fan of the big chainstores carrying herps. Aside from staff rarely knowing what they are talking about, there's nothing done to prevent disease, the printed caresheets they have are generally complete crap, and they rarely have decent equipment to properly keep some of the species they carry.

Theres nothing wrong with heat lamps if used properly . Though yes, they are close to useless with strictly nocturnal animals.

If not cleaned often, carpet can harbour bacteria fairly well. All substrate does (as does your toothbrush, food, keyboard, &c.) but it certainly isn't all that better than natural substrates or papertowel, if at all. Not to mention it can quite easily catch nails.

2. Good for you! biosecurity is often overlooked way too easily in the hobby. It's a vital part of keeping animals, especially if we don't want novel pathogens, or a reason for them to be banned

3.Are you sure? Did you get them tested? There's quite a few other pathogens and parasites that cause the same or similar symptoms: kidney failure, bacteria, other protozoa, obstructions and nematodes to name a few.

Moon- my first leopard gecko, who I got in 5th grade. I didn't do enough research on her care, she got sick and died after a year. something was always wrong with her, she never grew an inch with me and was never a good eater. Moon didn't show signs of illness until a few weeks after sun's death.

Sun- my second gecko. got her around the same time as the first. she lived with Moon, got amoeba and died after a few months (I tried to treat her but it was too late). I'm not sure if it was amoeba or crypto, most likely amoeba because (somewhere I read on amoeba) in a later stage of illness, the cloaca would get covered in feces...

Nova- a fat tailed gecko. of course I didn't put her with Moon, I was smarter than that. I didn't want her to get sick. I knew how to take care of her and she was doing well. What I didn't know about was cross contamination.
one day I started feeding with tweezers. what I forgot was that I used those tweezers for my other geckos before, too.
Nova got sick within a few days and died after a week or two of home treatment, before I got a chance to take her to the vet.

Saturn- almost an impulse buy... [.....] I just went with the nice looking super hypo with the bright orange head. ever since she's been a great eater, and pretty fat too. she'll be coming up on 2 years soon.

[.....]

Mochi- my first crested gecko. I did 7 months worth of research on crested geckos and their care... I got it at a reptile expo. He was doing well, being good with handling and eating. then as winter came, he started getting sluggish. I did everything I could to keep him warm, which got the point of just keeping him next to the heat vent. (which never got past 76F for some reason.) on new years eve, unknown to me, the thermostat was turned down during the new year's party... which was basically pulling the plug for the little guy. He started to slow down, I started to freak out, and he died the next day.

Again, are you sure crypto (or Amoebas)? Those symptoms could be numerous things.

The crested gecko is confusing. He was eating fine and had a decent weight to him? What temp did the room get when it was turned down? It can get down into the 60's in it's native habitat:

(view in a new tab to see it better. The black background on the site kind of messes the up picture.)

At the reptile expo I go to, not many people are even breeding leopard geckos anymore...
I'll list the frequencies of the more popular animals there:
1. ball pythons
2. hognose snakes
3. bearded dragons
4. crested geckos
5. frogs
6. chameleons
7. axolotls
8. various other pythons
9. large lizards like monitors and tegus
10. leopard geckos and other geckos with eyelids.

Interesting. Last time I was at the expo (mind you, it's been a few years) it was almost exclusively balls, boas, bearded dragons, cresteds and leopards, with the odd cham or monitor breeder sprinkled through out. I should really go to one again.

All the geckos I have are under simple care:
at least 2-3 hides, cool and warm.
under tank heaters
diets of calcium dusted mealworms/crickets, as well as a calcium dish. saturn and pluto don't have calcium dishes but I pour a small pile of calcium in saturn's cage from time to time and she licks it all up within about a week. I also don't intent to feed pluto crickets that often.
I refill their water every few days. I only clean the whole bowl itself every few weeks, but saturn's been fine with that for the past (nearly) 2 years.
I spot clean their cages every week or so.
I also wash my hands:
- before feeding/cleaning/handling
- after cleaning the gecko's poop
- touching anything outside the tank in fear that the surface might have some trace of the past geckos, even though they never came into direct/indirect contact with these surfaces.
-going between geckos, mostly just switching between pluto and my adult geckos in fear that it might have a european-native american type thing where the adults have some disease they're strong and immune to that the baby might get sick with. (if the first part made no sense, well when the europeans came to america, they brought diseases they were used to but the natives weren't and the natives got sick and many died.)
I'm just wondering how long crypto lives on surfaces in any case that any are on anything in this house.
it's been 3 years since I had moon and I got rid of all her stuff. I also moved.
Last night I sleepwalked... and messed up my poor baby gecko's cage.
pluto is fine, but when I woke up his warm hide was upside down on the other side of his cage and he was in the back shaking a bit...
I washed off all his stuff cuz I know sleeping me didn't wash his hands before messing with pluto.
is there any chance he can get infected cuz of this?
I read that crypto can't be transmitted with casual contact. Then again people have touched saturn without washing their hands, and she's still alive.

I dulled the red because it was hurting my eyes (although there was a cool optical illusion with the descenders crossing the underline!).

-Is there a humid hide?
-Are you gut loading the food before hand?
-Novel pathogens (ameri-euro thing) is absolutely a possibility, and in my opinion, one not taken seriously enough by hobbyists (especially those dealing with wild-caught). It's a bigger issue when it comes to wild caught animals or people wanting to mix species (do NOT get me started on that haha), but it is an issue with captive bred; especially if the animals are coming from different sources. This is why quarantining all new animals is paramount. Just look at Chytrid....

If you want to reduce this as much as possible, washing hands with soap and hot water between tanks, even wearing a new pair gloves for each tank, as well as having seperate equipment for each tank, destroying any spider webs nearby, sterilizing any decorations after tearing down a tank, &c. can all help. Though I should mention, there's a possibility gloves might not be as good as one thinks; see here. As a caveat, I should mention that that is specifically for Chytrid, so unless you are a frog breeder, or researcher, maybe stick to gloves.

I'm not trying to make this sound scary at all. In all honestly, some basic hygiene and common sense (wash hands, sanitize things, remove feces quickly) and you should be fine. If you start getting into wild-caught animals, you'll have to start being more stringent.

Also a bit more story on moon-
I got her from petco.
At first I kept her with one hide, a heat lamp, and only fed her 5 undusted crickets every day.
I started learning more about leos, and started giving her calcium/vitamins and more crickets. I later got a heat pad, but stuck it on the side instead of under because my mom didn't want it to burn the shelf the tank was on. still heated the gecko and she still digested food.
I still only cleaned the whole tank once a week and didn't clean water that often and all that...

How and where were you measuring the temperature?

Also, if it helps in the future, assuming it's a wood shelf and you're using a thermostat, the chance of burning the shelf is extremely low. Wood starts to burn at temperatures WAY above anything your lizards should be getting. There'd have to be faulty wiring for something like that to happen.

good, thank you. I haven't come into contact with any crypto infected poop in 3 years, or even ever, I always wrapped it in a paper towel and used gloves.
My trash can downstairs may still have some traces though.
how about the trash can outside? where all the trash goes... that probably has so much of it on it. or does it get washed off in natural ways since it usually sits outside?
also I'm going to build some hides for y baby fat tailed gecko... out of wood. any good things to disinfect the wood with for this? just in case there is anything on it? (not just crypto)
also anything to waterproof it? as you may know, fat tailed geckos need higher humidity.

That's the thing... I already have the plywood for building it.
any chemicals I should look for in the disinfectants I have that kill crypto?

5% hydrogen peroxide soaks for lengths greater then 20 minutes are the CDC's recommended treatment.

Boiling water can also be used.

I think I'll go with boiling water.
I usually wash my reptiles' stuff with extremely hot water.

While the 3% bleach commonly in households won't inactivate Crypto spores, some things that have shown to work are Ozone, Chlorine Dioxide, Chlorine, and Monochloramine (limited, see link); UV (253.7nm), 5% Ammonia for 18hrs, and heat (65°C or 150°F for 30min), 10% formalin (is this controlled in the US?), and complete desiccation. With that said, I don't know how easily you can get that stuff (plus most of it isn't practical), so I'd stick with what Nathan said, what the CDC suggests.

alright, it's past midnight... I need to get some sleep. I'm sure I missed something, but I'll get to it tomorrow.