That is seachem's instruction, they have explained why on many different occasions.
How long does Chlorine, Chloramine, and such take to actually damage fish?
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That is seachem's instruction, they have explained why on many different occasions.
Ive always put the dechlor in as I fill I dose for the entire tank volume. Ive been using sodium thiosulphate for about 3 years and the cost is very low and Ive had no problems.
Add the dechlor, then add tap water. What you are currently doing is ass backwards, and the effect on your fish will be largely dependent on how much chlorine/chloramine is coming out of your taps, how large of a water change you perform, organic levels in your water, your tap water pH, water temp, etc. - as well as the species of fish. (and their stage of growth)
Not so simplistic as some may think.
From a past comment that I posted on this subject ..............
Both chlorine &/or chloramine can cause long term damage & even death to fish, in some cases even at low levels, especially young fish which are typically the most sensitive to these substances. Free chlorine can cause acute necrosis of gill tissue in fish, the younger the fish the worse it can be. Chlorine also has the potential to wipe out most/all of the bio bacteria in your system. In short chlorine is an oxidizer, that can burn a fishes gills & kill cell tissue, sometimes even at low levels.
The amount of chlorine and or chloramine can vary greatly from one municipality to another, as well as from one tap to another, and can also vary greatly throughout the season. There is no way that anyone on a public forum can possibly attempt to tell you what a "safe" amount is in your case unless they have the specs on your local tap water at your user end. Water temp, pH values, etc can also determine how 'safe' certain levels of known toxic substances can be on fish.
According to Edward Noga, a professor at NC State that is considered an expert in the disease & health of fish, chlorine levels as low as 0.10 mg/l (which is common in many tap water levels) can be accutely fatal in aquaria that has low levels of organics. (as in a new set up) Others have found residual chlorine levels as low as 0.05 mg/l to be toxic to certain species of fish.
There has been a TON of work done in this area over the past few decades, by a number of researchers, such as Tompkins & Tsai (1976) for anyone that is interested in understanding just how toxic both chlorine & chloramine can be in a closed system that contains fish.
The fact that your fish haven't died is positive, but that in no way means that the exposure hasn't caused damage to your fish. Again, this will be dependant on numerous factors, and can vary greatly from one hobbyists situation to another. What may be safe for some people, could prove to be a disaster for the next person a few cities or towns over.
Unfortunately the LC50 (survival time) of most tropical species of fish placed under various levels of chlorine/chloramine has yet to be established, but the bottom line is both substances are highly toxic to most aquatic organisms.
From the EPA ....
http://www.epa.gov/chemfact/s_chlori.txt
Best course of action to reduce stress from exposure to chlorine/chloramine is add a small amount of sodium chloride (salt) which will help reduce osmoregulatory stress, increase aeration (the more the better), and reduce the temp of the tank a few degrees to also improve dissolved oxygen levels.
HTH
Not so simplistic as some may think.
From a past comment that I posted on this subject ..............
Both chlorine &/or chloramine can cause long term damage & even death to fish, in some cases even at low levels, especially young fish which are typically the most sensitive to these substances. Free chlorine can cause acute necrosis of gill tissue in fish, the younger the fish the worse it can be. Chlorine also has the potential to wipe out most/all of the bio bacteria in your system. In short chlorine is an oxidizer, that can burn a fishes gills & kill cell tissue, sometimes even at low levels.
The amount of chlorine and or chloramine can vary greatly from one municipality to another, as well as from one tap to another, and can also vary greatly throughout the season. There is no way that anyone on a public forum can possibly attempt to tell you what a "safe" amount is in your case unless they have the specs on your local tap water at your user end. Water temp, pH values, etc can also determine how 'safe' certain levels of known toxic substances can be on fish.
According to Edward Noga, a professor at NC State that is considered an expert in the disease & health of fish, chlorine levels as low as 0.10 mg/l (which is common in many tap water levels) can be accutely fatal in aquaria that has low levels of organics. (as in a new set up) Others have found residual chlorine levels as low as 0.05 mg/l to be toxic to certain species of fish.
There has been a TON of work done in this area over the past few decades, by a number of researchers, such as Tompkins & Tsai (1976) for anyone that is interested in understanding just how toxic both chlorine & chloramine can be in a closed system that contains fish.
The fact that your fish haven't died is positive, but that in no way means that the exposure hasn't caused damage to your fish. Again, this will be dependant on numerous factors, and can vary greatly from one hobbyists situation to another. What may be safe for some people, could prove to be a disaster for the next person a few cities or towns over.
Unfortunately the LC50 (survival time) of most tropical species of fish placed under various levels of chlorine/chloramine has yet to be established, but the bottom line is both substances are highly toxic to most aquatic organisms.
From the EPA ....
http://www.epa.gov/chemfact/s_chlori.txt
Best course of action to reduce stress from exposure to chlorine/chloramine is add a small amount of sodium chloride (salt) which will help reduce osmoregulatory stress, increase aeration (the more the better), and reduce the temp of the tank a few degrees to also improve dissolved oxygen levels.
HTH
I concur with a lot of what people have been saying. Chlorine burns fish gills immediately and can wipe out beneficial bacteria fairly quickly. Even if your fish seem fine, what makes the susceptible to issues is frequently compound stress (multiple sources). So another stressor could be the last straw, causing their health to deteriorate later on.
Add your dechlorinator before adding the new water. I never dose for the whole tank (even on hundreds of clients tanks over the years), but I usually slightly overdose for the volume of water I'm replacing. I have a feeling they just want you to use more of their product. Like how fish food containers instruct you to feed 2x per day.
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Add your dechlorinator before adding the new water. I never dose for the whole tank (even on hundreds of clients tanks over the years), but I usually slightly overdose for the volume of water I'm replacing. I have a feeling they just want you to use more of their product. Like how fish food containers instruct you to feed 2x per day.
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For Seachem, it's a better safe than sorry scenario to cover the vast amount of different set ups where their products are being used, from marine systems, to freshwater.
From the following sticky on dechlorinators ....
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?309623-Cost-Effective-Water-Conditioners
A couple of weeks ago I asked Greg about having to treat the entire tank volume, when filling directly from a hose. (vs. pre-treating the new water). This comes up time & time again on various forums, so here's the skinny directly from the CEO of Seachem. (who also holds a PhD in chemistry)
Greg stated:
"some people prefer to just add the new untreated water directly to the tank... if they do that then we recommend the amount of Prime they add be based on the total gallonage of the aquarium rather than just what they added. The "extra" amount speeds up the rate of removal."
I then asked: Is the reaction time based on pH, or any other factors?
I was curious about pH being a factor as the makers of ClorAm-X state:
"At low pH's this reaction proceeds slower than at pH's above 7, but in practical terms the reaction proceeds quickly enough to provide complete ammonia removal in an hour or less."
Greg's response:
"It would be influenced by pH although I'm not sure if the differences we see in an aquarium would contribute significantly to the time scale at a level where it would be noticed. But the reaction is one that produces H+ so higher pH would tend to favor the reaction although I'm not sure if kinetically it would have a noticeable effect.
But, at the end of the day, if what you are doing works and does not cause any problems then it is ok. Our recommendations are meant to cover a broad range of users and we tend to prefer to err on the side of being overly cautious."
-Greg Morin
Gregory Morin, Ph.D. ~~~~~~~President/CEO~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seachem Laboratories, Inc.
a lot of good information here. My steps are:
1. drain with python
2. add dechlorinator (to the volume of water i am changing and not the entire tank volume)
3. refill tank with python
kinda surprised to see they recommend adding dechlorinator for the entire tank volume.
1. drain with python
2. add dechlorinator (to the volume of water i am changing and not the entire tank volume)
3. refill tank with python
kinda surprised to see they recommend adding dechlorinator for the entire tank volume.
I think he's referring to the drain the tank until the fish are laying on their sides statement.
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I add mine in as I fill (not after) and I dose for the entire aquarium to be on the safe side. Also make sure you tank has good flow as some products can also reduce oxygen levels when you use them. I have done it this way for many years. Chlorine/amine, etc. can def. do damage so adding it in after the tank is completely filled is a little risky imo as they are sitting longer in un treated water.
It should also be noted that when you are dealing with ammonia, toxicity increases drastically as pH rises. When the pH is below 7 more of the ammonia will be in it's ionized state (ammonium, NH4+), which isn't really toxic. At work we deal with ammonia so frequently that we have to use the formula to determine unionized ammonia concentration to see if we're really in a danger zone. The factors are total ammonia nitrogen, pH, and temperature. So in regards to ammonia, I wonder whether it's better to have less toxic ammonia, or to have more toxic ammonia removed faster. I guess it depends how much faster the reaction really is!
But that's very interesting that adding more prime only affects the rate of removal and not its efficacy. I know that prime selects for chlorine/chloramines over the other things it "removes/detoxifies". I wonder if it's just a matter of the prime molecules coming into contact with the chlor or if there can be some other sort of inhibitory effect from the other chemicals prime acts on.
Correct, which is why it can be so important to know which form of disinfectant your municipality is using, and the pH of ones water. In the case of chloramine once the chlorine/ammonia bond is broken, the chlorine will be converted to fish safe chloride, which results in a spike of free ammonia, unless one is using a product that renders free ammonia into a fish safe non toxic form. IME, and I have experimented with some of the better products on the market over the years designed for treating chloramine (Prime, Safe), the reaction time with these chemicals in an aquarium, while adding tap water via a python - is pretty much instantaneous.
Prime is a reducing agent based on hydrosulphide salts. This is why Prime reacts with chlorine compounds, which are oxidising agents. If there is no chlorine present left to reduce it will find something else to reduce, such as oxygen, which is something that Ash previously mentioned.
