This can be our point of topic for discussing hybrid catfish. I'm keeping it in the catfish section as the hybrid section of this site is rarely ever used to discuss these large often pimelodid hybrids.
Hybrid Catfish Discussion thread.
- Thread starter necrocanis
- Start date
N: If you have someone who has a live one of these fish I can point you in the right direction. I have been in contact with Dr. John Lundberg about these hybrids. We haven't messaged in a while due to my chaotic circumstances. I was going to provide him with DNA samples of all my past hybrids, but these samples were lost in my latest move. I have worked the skeletons of all my hybrids, and sent him pics of them. He is very interested in getting DNA samples as well as studying my skeletons in person. His team has DNA sampled nearly every pimelodid catfish and have the most complete DNA catfish catalog. I can put you in touch with him and you can send him samples from the adipose fin of whatever catfish you'd like identified. He would do it for free since it would be a part of his research. This could shed some light.
TBTB: If you mean the suspected TSN x L. pictus, I don't have anybody. We'd have to try and persuade 2songbirds to do it, unless he'd really wanted to do it without any persuasion. You are far more advanced in this aspect of the hobby than I. Also I read DNA studies do not always show conclusive results and, if not mistaken, e.g., mitochondrial DNA show no info on the father species. I meet people reading scientific papers on these things, esp. amateur breeders. I don't.
N: I was always curious if my Marble x RTC was actually pictus, or marmoratus. Very confusing when you see the large dorsal fin. Ray count and vertebrae count means nothing in these hybrids as they sometimes fuse and deform with the conflicting DNA. Let me know what you think.
TBTB: Interesting... thought... Quite likely I can be wrong then about 2songbirds' fish, as my observation was very shallow... As for yours, I've only seen two photos of suspected L. marmoratus x RTC in the Cat-eLog on PlanetCatfish. Babies. I have never seen one live or even another one on a photo.
N: Here's some pics of the supposed TSN x Blochii. From studying pics in the past and from what I was told by the people who actually make the hybrids this should be a spot on ID. I was also told that fasciatum is the most common TSN species used for this. That TSN x Blochii is probably one of the most docile hybrids I have ever owned. He wouldn't eat unless it was out of my hand. sometimes he would take Cichlid pellets, but usually shrimp. Wouldn't even touch smaller fish.
TBTB: I'd agree with the ID. Thanks for the pics and the info. Good food for thought and for future reference here. Again, this is a second specimen I have seen (both on photos only). Looks like he has a bad caudal pendulum - either a spinal injury or a deformity. Do you think fasciatum is used for the TSN x blochii or for any hybrid involving a TSN? Do you have a guess at which species was the mother and the father (for any of your hybrids, inlcuding the one in the subject)?
Will have to discuss this later. At work right now, but wanted to get in here what inspired this thread. Origionally posted by:
thebiggerthebetter
N: My Marble x rtc was definitely a pig. All RTC in the eating and growing department. It's also of note that when I got this fish it was 14" and only grew 2" in the year I owned it before it died during a power outage.
TBTB: Which fish? Leiarius x RTC or the TSN x blochii?
TBTB: In a pathetic attempt to keep this on topic, I see the TSN x Leiarius in your photos... I thought you'd have threads on your fish and just provide the links... I wish we'd started a new thread on your hybrids.
TBTB: If you mean the suspected TSN x L. pictus, I don't have anybody. We'd have to try and persuade 2songbirds to do it, unless he'd really wanted to do it without any persuasion. You are far more advanced in this aspect of the hobby than I. Also I read DNA studies do not always show conclusive results and, if not mistaken, e.g., mitochondrial DNA show no info on the father species. I meet people reading scientific papers on these things, esp. amateur breeders. I don't.
N: I was always curious if my Marble x RTC was actually pictus, or marmoratus. Very confusing when you see the large dorsal fin. Ray count and vertebrae count means nothing in these hybrids as they sometimes fuse and deform with the conflicting DNA. Let me know what you think.
TBTB: Interesting... thought... Quite likely I can be wrong then about 2songbirds' fish, as my observation was very shallow... As for yours, I've only seen two photos of suspected L. marmoratus x RTC in the Cat-eLog on PlanetCatfish. Babies. I have never seen one live or even another one on a photo.
N: Here's some pics of the supposed TSN x Blochii. From studying pics in the past and from what I was told by the people who actually make the hybrids this should be a spot on ID. I was also told that fasciatum is the most common TSN species used for this. That TSN x Blochii is probably one of the most docile hybrids I have ever owned. He wouldn't eat unless it was out of my hand. sometimes he would take Cichlid pellets, but usually shrimp. Wouldn't even touch smaller fish.
TBTB: I'd agree with the ID. Thanks for the pics and the info. Good food for thought and for future reference here. Again, this is a second specimen I have seen (both on photos only). Looks like he has a bad caudal pendulum - either a spinal injury or a deformity. Do you think fasciatum is used for the TSN x blochii or for any hybrid involving a TSN? Do you have a guess at which species was the mother and the father (for any of your hybrids, inlcuding the one in the subject)?
Will have to discuss this later. At work right now, but wanted to get in here what inspired this thread. Origionally posted by:
thebiggerthebetter
N: My Marble x rtc was definitely a pig. All RTC in the eating and growing department. It's also of note that when I got this fish it was 14" and only grew 2" in the year I owned it before it died during a power outage.
TBTB: Which fish? Leiarius x RTC or the TSN x blochii?
TBTB: In a pathetic attempt to keep this on topic, I see the TSN x Leiarius in your photos... I thought you'd have threads on your fish and just provide the links... I wish we'd started a new thread on your hybrids.
N: If you have someone who has a live one of these fish I can point you in the right direction. I have been in contact with Dr. John Lundberg about these hybrids. We haven't messaged in a while due to my chaotic circumstances. I was going to provide him with DNA samples of all my past hybrids, but these samples were lost in my latest move. I have worked the skeletons of all my hybrids, and sent him pics of them. He is very interested in getting DNA samples as well as studying my skeletons in person. His team has DNA sampled nearly every pimelodid catfish and have the most complete DNA catfish catalog. I can put you in touch with him and you can send him samples from the adipose fin of whatever catfish you'd like identified. He would do it for free since it would be a part of his research. This could shed some light.
TBTB: If you mean the suspected TSN x L. pictus, I don't have anybody. We'd have to try and persuade 2songbirds to do it, unless he'd really wanted to do it without any persuasion. You are far more advanced in this aspect of the hobby than I. Also I read DNA studies do not always show conclusive results and, if not mistaken, e.g., mitochondrial DNA show no info on the father species. I meet people reading scientific papers on these things, esp. amateur breeders. I don't.
N: It really depends on what type of DNA analysis they perform. I will have to look up my emails from Dr. Lundberg and see what he said about it. I am not that big into DNA myself, but started doing some research on it when I thought I was going to try to make hybrids myself. I actually have a guide that I put together to try this myself. I did so much research on the subject and was able to find the sources of the hybrids themselves and get some good info from them as well.
Luckily I have all this information saved for when I am better able to test this stuff out. lol, I don't know why but I really wanted to try a Jau x LSN.
N: I was always curious if my Marble x RTC was actually pictus, or marmoratus. Very confusing when you see the large dorsal fin. Ray count and vertebrae count means nothing in these hybrids as they sometimes fuse and deform with the conflicting DNA. Let me know what you think.
TBTB: Interesting... thought... Quite likely I can be wrong then about 2songbirds' fish, as my observation was very shallow... As for yours, I've only seen two photos of suspected L. marmoratus x RTC in the Cat-eLog on PlanetCatfish. Babies. I have never seen one live or even another one on a photo.
N: I have tons of pics of mine. From baby up to his final 25" I believe at death. I've been working on comparing the skeletal anatomy of my hybrids to the skeletal anatomy of Full species. I can say with certainty that my MRTC was L. Marmoratus. I have a Marmoratus skeleton that I compared to the hybrid skeleton. Seems to me a great match when taking into account the characteristics of the RTC in it also.
N: Here's some pics of the supposed TSN x Blochii. From studying pics in the past and from what I was told by the people who actually make the hybrids this should be a spot on ID. I was also told that fasciatum is the most common TSN species used for this. That TSN x Blochii is probably one of the most docile hybrids I have ever owned. He wouldn't eat unless it was out of my hand. sometimes he would take Cichlid pellets, but usually shrimp. Wouldn't even touch smaller fish.
TBTB: I'd agree with the ID. Thanks for the pics and the info. Good food for thought and for future reference here. Again, this is a second specimen I have seen (both on photos only). Looks like he has a bad caudal pendulum - either a spinal injury or a deformity. Do you think fasciatum is used for the TSN x blochii or for any hybrid involving a TSN? Do you have a guess at which species was the mother and the father (for any of your hybrids, inlcuding the one in the subject.
N: I can say from my disection of this specimen that this fish had a conflict of skeletal and muscular anatomy. When hybridized catfish(possibly all fish) seem to have a special ability to hybridize on a higher level than other vertebrates. This is something that Dr. Lundberg and I were discussing. Usually hybridization is only possible within a genus according text books. Catfish have definitely proven that hybrids can go out farther than this. Either it is false that hybrids only occur within a genus, or all catfish species are more closely related than previously considered. It would seem strange that nearly all catfish are capable of hybridization so they should all be in the same genera. Whose ever heard of a genus of vertebrates containing over 3000 species?
N: My Marble x rtc was definitely a pig. All RTC in the eating and growing department. It's also of note that when I got this fish it was 14" and only grew 2" in the year I owned it before it died during a power outage.
TBTB: Which fish? Leiarius x RTC or the TSN x blochii?
N: TSN x Blochii
TBTB: In a pathetic attempt to keep this on topic, I see the TSN x Leiarius in your photos... I thought you'd have threads on your fish and just provide the links... I wish we'd started a new thread on your hybrids.
That's what this thread is all about now!
Discuss away!!!!
TBTB: If you mean the suspected TSN x L. pictus, I don't have anybody. We'd have to try and persuade 2songbirds to do it, unless he'd really wanted to do it without any persuasion. You are far more advanced in this aspect of the hobby than I. Also I read DNA studies do not always show conclusive results and, if not mistaken, e.g., mitochondrial DNA show no info on the father species. I meet people reading scientific papers on these things, esp. amateur breeders. I don't.
N: It really depends on what type of DNA analysis they perform. I will have to look up my emails from Dr. Lundberg and see what he said about it. I am not that big into DNA myself, but started doing some research on it when I thought I was going to try to make hybrids myself. I actually have a guide that I put together to try this myself. I did so much research on the subject and was able to find the sources of the hybrids themselves and get some good info from them as well.
Luckily I have all this information saved for when I am better able to test this stuff out. lol, I don't know why but I really wanted to try a Jau x LSN.N: I was always curious if my Marble x RTC was actually pictus, or marmoratus. Very confusing when you see the large dorsal fin. Ray count and vertebrae count means nothing in these hybrids as they sometimes fuse and deform with the conflicting DNA. Let me know what you think.
TBTB: Interesting... thought... Quite likely I can be wrong then about 2songbirds' fish, as my observation was very shallow... As for yours, I've only seen two photos of suspected L. marmoratus x RTC in the Cat-eLog on PlanetCatfish. Babies. I have never seen one live or even another one on a photo.
N: I have tons of pics of mine. From baby up to his final 25" I believe at death. I've been working on comparing the skeletal anatomy of my hybrids to the skeletal anatomy of Full species. I can say with certainty that my MRTC was L. Marmoratus. I have a Marmoratus skeleton that I compared to the hybrid skeleton. Seems to me a great match when taking into account the characteristics of the RTC in it also.
N: Here's some pics of the supposed TSN x Blochii. From studying pics in the past and from what I was told by the people who actually make the hybrids this should be a spot on ID. I was also told that fasciatum is the most common TSN species used for this. That TSN x Blochii is probably one of the most docile hybrids I have ever owned. He wouldn't eat unless it was out of my hand. sometimes he would take Cichlid pellets, but usually shrimp. Wouldn't even touch smaller fish.
TBTB: I'd agree with the ID. Thanks for the pics and the info. Good food for thought and for future reference here. Again, this is a second specimen I have seen (both on photos only). Looks like he has a bad caudal pendulum - either a spinal injury or a deformity. Do you think fasciatum is used for the TSN x blochii or for any hybrid involving a TSN? Do you have a guess at which species was the mother and the father (for any of your hybrids, inlcuding the one in the subject.
N: I can say from my disection of this specimen that this fish had a conflict of skeletal and muscular anatomy. When hybridized catfish(possibly all fish) seem to have a special ability to hybridize on a higher level than other vertebrates. This is something that Dr. Lundberg and I were discussing. Usually hybridization is only possible within a genus according text books. Catfish have definitely proven that hybrids can go out farther than this. Either it is false that hybrids only occur within a genus, or all catfish species are more closely related than previously considered. It would seem strange that nearly all catfish are capable of hybridization so they should all be in the same genera. Whose ever heard of a genus of vertebrates containing over 3000 species?
N: My Marble x rtc was definitely a pig. All RTC in the eating and growing department. It's also of note that when I got this fish it was 14" and only grew 2" in the year I owned it before it died during a power outage.
TBTB: Which fish? Leiarius x RTC or the TSN x blochii?
N: TSN x Blochii
TBTB: In a pathetic attempt to keep this on topic, I see the TSN x Leiarius in your photos... I thought you'd have threads on your fish and just provide the links... I wish we'd started a new thread on your hybrids.
That's what this thread is all about now!
Discuss away!!!!
Here are some pics of all the hybrids I have personally owned. Doesn't seem like that many to me lol.
TSN x Blochii
RTC x TSN
RTC x Leiarius
TSN x Leiarius
TSN x Blochii
RTC x TSN
RTC x Leiarius
TSN x Leiarius
lol, totally forgot! Got my brain whirring now!!! I have the original documentation that shows all the species that were involved from the get go in experiments to see which hybrids had the highest fertilizations rates, highest amount of hybrid vigor, and most importantly highest carcass yield! They used almost all of the large pimelodid species and a few smaller ones including LSN, and smaller pims. There were even several P. corruscans hybrids, as well as planiceps also. Just wish it had pics of all that they made lol Not to say that other species haven't made their way in as the people who perfected this method of producing hybrids also make others now. As you can figure RTC x TSN was chosen for full scale production for a food fish.
Nice thread. One day I hope I can chime in with my one hybrid but look like most get pretty big and the other are just difficult to find. I would however like to know more about the TSN x Blochii. Sounds like an interesting fish. Also I really enjoyed your pictures. You've owned some gorgeous catfish. Oh, and welcome back.
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Very ture. This is why I was trying to build the 4000 gal aquarium
Thank you so much btw!
Very ture. This is why I was trying to build the 4000 gal aquarium
Do you think you'll ever continue your project? I also wanted to ask we're you get your more oddballish hybrids. Especially the ones that don't get over 30". How big was your RTC x TSN? It looks huge!
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In the pics I have of adults from the breeders they have a more red tail as they get larger. Mine was just over 2', the pics from the breeders shows from baby to what I would consider a young adult around 32". the tail gets a really dark crimson redish color.
Honestly I don't know. Finding catfish hybrids besides RTC x TSN is very hit and miss. I was willing to pay big time to get a TSN x Niger hybrid, but as soon as they would come in everyone would buy them up. Look now there's none that I know of. Could be wrong, but that's one I really wanted to see as an adult. Not sure if anyone ever posted one up but there was also a RTC x niger hybrid. Again no confirmed pics, but good sources have led me to believe it happened. let's just say from the front of my RTC x TSN dorsal fin to the tip of his snout measures over 16"! He was just over the 3' mark by a lil. I really wish I could have grown him out more. That's how big he got from 16ish" when I bought him til 3 years later. Add another 3 years worth of growth. He would be magnificent. At least I can use his skeleton and some soft tissues to help further our understanding of this gorgeous hybrid!!!
Everyone please let's gather some pics in this thread as I would like to add a special spot for the hybrids in my sticky.
I want to see if I can get it approved to put a hybrid catfish thread as a sticky in here. I will add all kinds of neat info like references to their origins, laymen knowledge on how they are produced, growth rates, sizes, and special considerations.