Hybrid discussion from Mo's thread....

[dogofwar]

"Things have deffinately changed, but us old guard ones won't I am sure."

So does the ACA want to become a bunch of old people clinging to the idea that the earth is flat?

"Telling us flowerhorns are okay is like telling us stealing is okay or our religion is wrong."

So - to use your metaphor - should the ACA seek to become the fishkeeping equivalent of an ultra-conservative religious faction: maintaining the strictest interpretation of the hobby and denouncing all others as heretics and sinners? Sounds like a great growth strategy.

"The thing of it is of course, not everyone has the same morals. What is right for one person isn't always right for the next."

I think you're confusing MORALS...and TASTE. Two very different things.

"But in regards to the ACA, as I said, hybrids are at the complete opposite of consveration, so no the ACA should not allow them."

I'd argue that actively destroying habitats... or standing by as habitats are destroyed are the opposite of conservation. As a small, relatively poorly funded organization, the ACA has limited impact on conservation. As a larger one, it could have a larger impact, including on the next generation of the hobby.

I've yet to hear a valid argument that flowerhorns impact the purity of captive populations of wild-type fish any more than ANY wild-type species does. Irresponsible fishkeeping is at the heart of destroying the purity of wild-type species.

I hope that I'm being constructive, but I really want to hear a solid, thought out, defensible argument deeper than "I don't like flowerhorns, so they're bad"

 

[L.BelcherII]

The argument that hybrids are bad in general is, for the most part, because of the meshing of the individual species. Midas/Rd, GT/Saum/Acara are just two of the examples where the two have been bred and then sold. IMO the only way anyone can get a true species of fish is through a reputable breeder. This is the argument against hybrids. It's the resistance to the dumbing down of two (or more) species to the point where there is no more differentiation between the two in the industry. The debate has come down on mainly arguing flower horns. The issue is that adequate arguments can be made for both sides. IMO the problem isn't the thoroughbred FHs. They are a fish unto themselves. They have bred to be something else entirely. The problem is the ones out there being sold as Trimac.

The ACA should alow certain new classifications and set a standard for each new addition and what that should look like in the industry.

Someone mentioned the westminster dog show? So you think all those dogs were NOT selectively bred for their individual characteristics in the exact way that quality FHs are?

 

[FSM]

Hybrid owners weren't the only ones biting their tongues (warning: this might get ugly, hope I don't get banned).

Hybrids are in direct contrast to the conservation of cichlid species. If one of the ACA's main goal is conservation, then no of course they should not allow hybrids. Even worse than trimacs are lyonsi, which are the big new trend and species adding to the flowerhorn mix. This is an incredibly rare fish in the hobby and in the wild, with a tiny natural range that is being destroyed. More than any other, this species is in a very real danger from the "f-word."

But what really amazes me is how people don't know or don't realize how wrong hybrids are. Not only is it unethical, it's immoral. Maybe becuase I'm an old school aquarist or just a grumpy old man, but it's the fact people don't understand that it's wrong is what gets people so pissed about this issue. There is no why, your internal moral compass should tell you that it's wrong just like beating a child or kicking a dog. Yes there are a few people that don't see those as wrong either, but they don't decide the laws of the land luckily. Nor should those with bad internal moral compasses determines what happens to this hobby and industry. People with them should, at the very least, have all their fish and other pets taken away and never allowed to have pets again since they obviously have shown they can't be responsible. They should be fined enough that none of their children should be able to go to college. Of course, these are the mildest punishments I would do, but the other ones are really shouldn't be posted, kids do read this stuff.

That is why this becomes such a hotly debated issue each time it comes up, becuase us old guards see it as a moral issue.

Why?

 

[dogofwar]

...with FSM.

Why is it immoral to keep a flowerhorn...or for people to develop flowerhorns... when the real PROBLEM is people who mis-represent what they sell / distribute?

Do you freak out equally strongly on fancy swordtails, koi, fancy goldfish, fancy discus, EBJDs, etc, etc, etc?

Do you think that calling people who buy a flowerhorn as their first cichlid "unethical" will help attract them to the ACA / the traditional cichlid hobby?

 

[Peanut_Power]

Where do you draw the line on which hybrids are allowed at the ACA and which ones aren't? How would you judge them and categorize them?

Hybrids might not be such a bad thing at the ACA as long as they are regulated on what is or isn't allowed. If you just allow any or every hybrid at the ACA, it will quickly be overrun by them. Its not the AHA, its the ACA.

The main risk is the loss of focus on pure, untainted strains of fish. If hybrids are allowed, its VERY possible that people will take on the view that it doesn't matter as much any more about keeping variants and strains of fish 'pure'. If that happens, a lot of years of dedication and hardwork goes down the drain.

 

[benzjamin13]

Like most corporations and businesses, they want more people to be interested in the hobby to draw a bigger crowd. A lot of things are ran with business in mind. If Hybrids become such a popular item. They may open up a spot for them. Now if some purist gets upset over this and decided they no longer want to be a part of the ACA, it may not matter to the people running the show. If they lost 20 people because they allowed Hybrids to be part of the ACA, but gain 100 more people that are interested in Hybrid...then they consider that a success.

 

[L.BelcherII]

Hybrids might not be such a bad thing at the ACA as long as they are regulated on what is or isn't allowed. If you just allow any or every hybrid at the ACA, it will quickly be overrun by them. Its not the AHA, its the ACA.

I agree with you. IF they are to do this, then it has to be a regulated system. Someone mentioned the Wesminster Dog Show. But they used it in the exact wrong context. Do you think those dogs weren't originally selectively bred in the EXACT way that Flower Horns, Red Texas, Blood Parrots, etc. are? I think once you have a set standard for each new classification within the ACA then people will have something to shoot for and to perfect.

 

[Peanut_Power]

I agree with you. IF they are to do this, then it has to be a regulated system. Someone mentioned the Wesminster Dog Show. But they used it in the exact wrong context. Do you think those dogs weren't originally selectively bred in the EXACT way that Flower Horns, Red Texas, Blood Parrots, etc. are? I think once you have a set standard for each new classification within the ACA then people will have something to shoot for and to perfect.

So what your saying is that the dogs at the Wesminster Dog Show are really hybrids that have been line bred for several generations to get desired traits out of them? Selectively breeding dogs, although somewhat similar, is still different than selectively breeding hybrids.

FH's, Red Texas, and Bloody Parrots (I have to admit I can't stand these guys) are hybrids. Even though they have been selectively bred for desired traits, they are still not their own species.

What is defined as hybrid? A fish that is the result of two distinctly different species being bred together? Or is a hybrid a fish that results in the breeding of two different variants of the same species being bred together?

 

[L.BelcherII]

Good points. I think until there is a selected standard to be upheld for cross bred fish then they should all be classified as hybrids and treated as such.

 

[darth pike]

PP - The dictionary deffination of hybrid includes both - mixes between differant species as well as same species but differant races/color forms.

Dog of War - On betta forums, people in the IBC do freak out over hybrid crosses of wild type bettas as much as cichlid people here do.

And no, I am not confusing taste and morals. With the exception of the kok, I find a lot of the patterns on flowerhorns rather pretty. Something one person finds aestically pleasing is taste.

Deffinately not suggestion the ACA becomes some right wing religious order. But even nonreligious people would have an issue with someone creating a human-monkey hybrid. No obviously a hybrid between two species in the same genus isn't quite the same thing, but as humans we don't have another species in our genus, so it's the closest that we can come to as an anology.

Conservation mostly includes habitat destruction like you indicated, but in the case of lake victoria cichlids it does include the captive care and breeding. This new craze of adding lyonsi to the mix is very distrubing. Flowerhorn breeders are buying the few ones that do come up for sale, and their tiny natural range is already being lost. More so than trimacs, lyonsi are indeed at risk do to this.

I agree it comes done to responsibility. I will never argue that flowerhorn breeders don't have talent, but I do believe adding ultra rare fish into their crosses is irresponsible. And if we could expect people to be responsible, this won't be an issue. Just because you and I know it's wrong to steal and are responsible, does that mean we don't need laws against stealing?

And no, I don't keep livebears and find mutant goldfish (even though they are one species) just as wrong as I do hybrids. And I do prefer wild type bettas, angelfish and discus over the line bred strains.

FSM - If I can't adequately explain why stealing is wrong or why it's wrong to hit a child, I certainly can't explain something as complex as the wrongness of hybrids.