hybrid or pure blood p14

[P14s]

Sorry to have stolen your pictures Andreas, but i had to share them.

The smaller female is Andrea's first pup, she is two years old and almost completely black. Also his male who is 6 years old, and is still getting more and more spots in the grey area's.

Alex

 

[ESJBond007]

nice looking ray..

 

[RARE AFISHINADO]

anyone who posts "its a hybrid" is just guessing and spreading misinfo. From what I see both parents appear true P14 traced back to the Wild. You have to leave some room for variation within a species. Just because it looks slightly different or abberant doesnt mean its a hybrid.

 

[csx4236]

anyone who posts "its a hybrid" is just guessing and spreading misinfo. From what I see both parents appear true P14 traced back to the Wild. You have to leave some room for variation within a species. Just because it looks slightly different or abberant doesnt mean its a hybrid.

Both the parents of this pup were owned by T1 and they were captive breed and not wild caught, plus while his parent were breed one of them was breed in a tank that also had pearls in the tank so there is a chance of some type of hybridization. Spreading misinfo? More like taking an educated guess of course there are always differnet variations in rays.

 

[P14s]

Yeah Mike is right, but there is more too.

I will try and give as full as explanation as i can.

The thing that we don't know is the true identity of Richard's male. Richard's male's mother came from a guy (Peter Lutz) who's P14s were breeding but he gave up the hobby before Richard's male's mother gave birth. So the guy who bought Richard's male's mother had 3 still born pups in his tank (if they had been born alive they would have been the first captive bred P14s about a year before Frank http://www.perlenrochen.potamotrygon.de/P14-Balz.htm). The guy who had just bought her didn't have a male P14 in the tank, and only a male pearl, the male pearl hybridised with her, and they actually produced pure P14/Pearl. http://www.potamotrygon.de/rochennews/041021-P14-Nachzucht.html

When the guy who had already bought Richard's male's mother got another male P14. (Just guessing) I think they bred, but i'm not sure if the pearl stopped breeding with the female P14, or if it was both the male P14 and Pearl. If that was so the pups produced would have been 75% P14 and only 25% Pearl. That could be why Richard's adult male looks so much like a P14.

Because the final part is all speculation, i'm going to say we will just have to wait and see what happens with these pups. At the moment i recon there is the slightest touch of pearl on the pups, but one of Richard's pups looks completely pure blood. So it is a case of wait and see what the F3 generation will look like.

Maybe Richard will show you the link of his tank, and you can see all of his rays, and amazing aro com. You get a good look at the pureblood looking male.

Alex

 

[rayman]

Hi Alex,

Sorry to have stolen your pictures Andreas

you thief

To make it complete, here is the female of my breeding pair:

What may from interest in this discussion is the colour of this female when I purchased her. Here is a picture when she arrived in my tank, diameter 6.4". I think she was one of the smallest wild cought Itaituba rays that survived captivity. (I have seen some very small pups exported but they die)

So with only 6.4" she was nearly black. But nobody know how old she was at this size. Here is a picture of her pup from august this year, 3.5 months old and even 6.4" diameter:

I had one pup that grow very slow, had not so many spots (like her mother) and was black at a size of 7.2" with 11 months. But the captive breed female that Alex showed above took 24 months to become almost black. So there is a great variation even with pups from the same breeding pair. And the pups with many spots need a longer time to get black.

 

[rayman]

Ok, let's go on

The guy who had just bought her didn't have a male P14 in the tank, and only a male pearl, the male pearl hybridised with her, and they actually produced pure P14/Pearl. http://www.potamotrygon.de/rochennews/041021-P14-Nachzucht.html

There is a misunderstanding, maybe from the google translation of my website.

He bought a pair of Itaituba rays from Peter Lutz and the birth I reported on my website was the first pure Itaituba breeding. He thought that the pups may be hybrids because of the strange coloration. At that time nobody knew how strange the coloration of the Itaituba pups is. He had a pair of Itaituba and a pair of pearl in that tank. After some litter the male Itaituba was killed by the female and it took some time to replace him. Later there were some hybrids too, but as I was told they look really different than pure Itaituba pups. But I have never seen pictures of them.