I don't care if you do this or not
- Thread starter rweedon
- Start date
I disagree with relying on laws to regulate the fish we keep, they turn into silly buggers and ban things just to justify their budgets. The laws don't keep people from keeping them anyway, there is a healthy blackmarket in asian aros and snakeheads in this country and lots of piranha in places that they are illegal. Resposible fish keepers teaching others how to be responsible fish keepers is the way to go. There will always be a-------s around but we don't have to join them. I did partial grow outs of fair sized fish because I had a ready madket for them, My tinfoils and balas got traded off at around six inches, etc. If you keep a fish that gets to big on you and you can't find it a decewnt home then do the responsible thing and whack off it's head. Tanks like rallysman's are big enough for almost anything, should he be denied a pacu or an aro because some deliberately ignorant sob was showing off?
rallysman said:
They 'could' grow out in alot of different sized tanks. Granted, you are doing a GREAT job at giving the Arowana a proper home, and a chance to live a long healthy life in captivity.. but think about it..
Arowanas are open water swimmers, and in the wild they catch prey by jumping completely out of the water.. They often 'cruise' for miles upon miles, in search of food.. Then you want to confine them to a box, where they can not do much of anything except swim in circles..
Do you ever wonder why Aros get deformaties such as 'Droop-eye'.. Do you think it's because they are 'looking down' at food, or is it possible they are just not looking up as often as they should because they are confined in captivity?
Do you ever wonder why Arowanas are quoted at 'Reaching 4 feet in the wild, but only 3 feet in captivity'.. That right there should be a red flag..
Most Pangasius species should reach nearly 4 feet, but none of them never come close due to lack of swimming space..
I am not trying to preach to you specifically, as it's obvious that Aro's are and always will be a main-stay in Aquaria, just like RTC's and Pangasius. It saddens me to see alot of Aros being crammed into tiny tanks over in Asia just because people can't properly facilitate them, but HAVE to have these monster fish.
It's just my opinion, and even my opinion will not stand up to the business world of supply and demand..!! It might be a different consideration if their weren't an over-abundance of aros in South America. Asian Aros are a different story, and I agree that they should be Illegal in the US. Let ignorant people kill the Silvers, not the good ones.
You are doing a good job, though.. Keep it up!
I don't like over crowdin my tankz either though....
...so i am workin on gettin my other 125 going and possibly moving some to the 75 as well...lol. I am probably gonna over crowd the tankz with the pikes though...the more pikes....the less the aggression on one fish...
. Plus 'dither' cichlids are helpful...my chocolates don't know it yet...but they do have a purpose...lol
...so i am workin on gettin my other 125 going and possibly moving some to the 75 as well...lol. I am probably gonna over crowd the tankz with the pikes though...the more pikes....the less the aggression on one fish.... Plus 'dither' cichlids are helpful...my chocolates don't know it yet...but they do have a purpose...lolMiles said:
I didn't want to disagree with this at first, mainly because I own both an RTC and a TSN and plan on adding a silver aro shortly. But considering that many of these fish are bought and killed by aquarists that don't know any better truly bothers me. So the question is, what can we seriously do to curtail this? My first thought would be to require permits to own these creatures. Unfortunately, while this sounds great on paper, the reality is that the government could not afford to regulate this program properly. And even if it did, I am certain that it would be easy enough to find a corrupt agent who would give you the permit. So that being said, anyone else out there have any realistic ideas of how the unneccessary death of these fish could be prevented?
Just stop importing them....'easy' as that. It won't stop it but it will greatly reduce the #'s. Suck for the rest of use that do it right though.....I think our best bet though is to be an example to others. Knowledge is a powerful tool, if people are educated and stuff about it....a lot more people will be more responsible. The main problem is a lotta people just don't know what they are gettin into.....
Education would be the best method.. once people who are new to the hobby know that they are buying a fish that grows to 100 times their current tank size i think they would think twice about rearing it. LFS owners shoud also not sell a fish to a person that does not have adequate housing for it, however this is impossible as most of them are selling fish for a living, not a hobby. However there are still people who think it is ok and that we cannot do anything about it. War and murder is wrong but it still is happening. Banning these kinds of fish is also plain selfish, just because there are people who cannot house it adequately doesnt mean that everyone else should bare the consequences. And if you really care about the fish, i think you shouldnt rear them at all as the environment in captivity can never match that of the wild.
Someone PM'ed me about this.. I was going to share my thoughts..
If your talking about Arowanas, I would say only %2 of the people who keep them, have a proper home for them..
Each year, there are over 10 million Arowanas farmed from the wild and shipped all over the world, I would say about %2 of those actually live to adulthood..
They 'outlawed' the reproduction of multiple children in China because of population explosion and lack of proper care towards these children. Pitbulls are illegal in multiple states due to fighting and abuse.. Education is a hard thing for un-educated people to understand..
You can educate people all you wan't, people will still be ignorant and kill off these fish because their 'manly fortitude' wants to display these 'monster' fish improperly.. Not really Pride as much as bragging rights, IMO..
So what your trying to say is since a small handful of these Arowanas actually are kept properly, that we should alow the other hundreds of millions to die a miserable death?
and Yes, most fish stores are about the money.. A good fish store will seldom carry these monster fish, and only carry them upon special orders. A good fish store would only sell you a fish that you could properly house..PetSmart believes silver arowanas only get 24" and they can live in 55g tanks, go ask for a care sheet on them. THIS is why they should be outlawed. Corporate pet stores will slowly take over the pet industry, but they could care less about educating people.. Especially if Education means less profits.
So you must annex the problem at the source, ie: Import Quotas into the united states on various oversized species. This would give them a 'rarity' value, and the people who can actually AFFORD to buy them, and AFFORD to house them, will take the time and effort to properly do so, and there wil be much more of a 'pride' factor involved.. Such as the pride when an asian person purchases and displays a $25,000 Arowana.. They aren't going to stuff that thing in a 55g tank.
Stingrays are now being released upon Quotas in Brazil. People who house stingrays, often do it properly, but now that they are being restricted the prices will be going up, and this increases their rarity value. People who purchase very large, expensive fish, will likely take the time to educate themselves and have a proper home for it.. Now that Pearl Rays are illegal to export, I would imagine anyone purchasing a Pearl Ray will do EVERYTHING they can do make sure its in a proper environment. On the flip side, you can purchase a juvenile arowana for under $10 and keep it in your 55g for quite a while. This means; no rarity value, or in other words, no one cares.. It becomes a 'disposable' fish. When it dies, you can just come back and get another one, because they had 50 of them in the tank.
I agree with Channas being Illegal as well, maybe not the dwarfs, but these guys get huge. They are often colorful and playful when juveniles, then grow into a MONSTER.. Then what happens? The uneducated 'dispose' of this fish into the wild, after-all they only paid $10 for it a few years ago when it was barely 3 inches. Chain reaction effect; Environment destroyed, thanks Channa! Not really like I am a big fan of N. American biotopes and their inhabitants, but alot of people are..
Clown knives, disposable.. Pangasius, disposable.. Pacu, disposable..Majority of XL catifsh, disposable.. Any fish that can be purchased under $20 when it is a juvie, but grows to over 3 feet, should be 'restricted' in some way.. For those who REALLY want to house these fish, and who REALLY can provide a proper home for them, should still have access..Quotas= Increase Rarity= Increase Value= Decrease 'Disposable' effect. It also helps conserve in the wild. Fish that are being tank-bred for money (RTCs), should be halted, and those people should start breeding something else.. Of course money, power, supply and demand will always overule sensability and education. However, if they passed a law restricting the number of tank-bred RTC's released into the public, it could increase the rarity value of the fish.
Mbu Puffers.. People educate themselves about this fish before they purchase it.. It has a 'rarity' value attached to it, Even the pet stores know it. It also demand a much higher price then most disposable fish.. Not any schmoe will just buy this puffer at a few inches for $100, especially after realizing it grows to 30"+! Most people who purchase Mbu Puffers have a proper home for it (300g+), or they have a plan to 'trade-in' at the LFS. The thing about trading in this monster, compared to other disposables, is that it will actually RE-SALE and hold a value. An XL Pacu, Clown Knife, or other big fish will not and likely die or be euthinized by the pet store.
BUT.. no matter how much we rant, or how much we try to educate people.. The government is still ignorant beyond belief in subjects that have little concern to them. It is not worth the time and money to government officials to even 'consider' such thoughts...Soooo The best thing we can do is educate people ourselves, such as open public internet message boards, specializing in the proper care of 'Monster Fish' .. Hooray, MFK, the savior! Well not quite, but it's a start!
Now I am sure alot of people will have little spin-off remarks about the stuff I used as example, and they will try to use other examples such as 'people put live plants in the wild and it destroys habitats, should we outlaw them too?'.. Keep in mind, there are alot of things outlawed, such as Anacharis in WA state.. But like I said before, the un-educated will always have a hard time understanding education.
Ok.. I have gone on long enough.
I am not saying I am ANTI-MFK, I am just saying that if these fish weren't so cheap and readily available, then we wouldn't have this problem of them flooding the market, and dying in the millions due to the ignorant and uneducated.
If your talking about Arowanas, I would say only %2 of the people who keep them, have a proper home for them..
Each year, there are over 10 million Arowanas farmed from the wild and shipped all over the world, I would say about %2 of those actually live to adulthood..
They 'outlawed' the reproduction of multiple children in China because of population explosion and lack of proper care towards these children. Pitbulls are illegal in multiple states due to fighting and abuse.. Education is a hard thing for un-educated people to understand..
You can educate people all you wan't, people will still be ignorant and kill off these fish because their 'manly fortitude' wants to display these 'monster' fish improperly.. Not really Pride as much as bragging rights, IMO..
So what your trying to say is since a small handful of these Arowanas actually are kept properly, that we should alow the other hundreds of millions to die a miserable death?
and Yes, most fish stores are about the money.. A good fish store will seldom carry these monster fish, and only carry them upon special orders. A good fish store would only sell you a fish that you could properly house..PetSmart believes silver arowanas only get 24" and they can live in 55g tanks, go ask for a care sheet on them. THIS is why they should be outlawed. Corporate pet stores will slowly take over the pet industry, but they could care less about educating people.. Especially if Education means less profits.
So you must annex the problem at the source, ie: Import Quotas into the united states on various oversized species. This would give them a 'rarity' value, and the people who can actually AFFORD to buy them, and AFFORD to house them, will take the time and effort to properly do so, and there wil be much more of a 'pride' factor involved.. Such as the pride when an asian person purchases and displays a $25,000 Arowana.. They aren't going to stuff that thing in a 55g tank.
Stingrays are now being released upon Quotas in Brazil. People who house stingrays, often do it properly, but now that they are being restricted the prices will be going up, and this increases their rarity value. People who purchase very large, expensive fish, will likely take the time to educate themselves and have a proper home for it.. Now that Pearl Rays are illegal to export, I would imagine anyone purchasing a Pearl Ray will do EVERYTHING they can do make sure its in a proper environment. On the flip side, you can purchase a juvenile arowana for under $10 and keep it in your 55g for quite a while. This means; no rarity value, or in other words, no one cares.. It becomes a 'disposable' fish. When it dies, you can just come back and get another one, because they had 50 of them in the tank.
I agree with Channas being Illegal as well, maybe not the dwarfs, but these guys get huge. They are often colorful and playful when juveniles, then grow into a MONSTER.. Then what happens? The uneducated 'dispose' of this fish into the wild, after-all they only paid $10 for it a few years ago when it was barely 3 inches. Chain reaction effect; Environment destroyed, thanks Channa! Not really like I am a big fan of N. American biotopes and their inhabitants, but alot of people are..
Clown knives, disposable.. Pangasius, disposable.. Pacu, disposable..Majority of XL catifsh, disposable.. Any fish that can be purchased under $20 when it is a juvie, but grows to over 3 feet, should be 'restricted' in some way.. For those who REALLY want to house these fish, and who REALLY can provide a proper home for them, should still have access..Quotas= Increase Rarity= Increase Value= Decrease 'Disposable' effect. It also helps conserve in the wild. Fish that are being tank-bred for money (RTCs), should be halted, and those people should start breeding something else.. Of course money, power, supply and demand will always overule sensability and education. However, if they passed a law restricting the number of tank-bred RTC's released into the public, it could increase the rarity value of the fish.
Mbu Puffers.. People educate themselves about this fish before they purchase it.. It has a 'rarity' value attached to it, Even the pet stores know it. It also demand a much higher price then most disposable fish.. Not any schmoe will just buy this puffer at a few inches for $100, especially after realizing it grows to 30"+! Most people who purchase Mbu Puffers have a proper home for it (300g+), or they have a plan to 'trade-in' at the LFS. The thing about trading in this monster, compared to other disposables, is that it will actually RE-SALE and hold a value. An XL Pacu, Clown Knife, or other big fish will not and likely die or be euthinized by the pet store.
BUT.. no matter how much we rant, or how much we try to educate people.. The government is still ignorant beyond belief in subjects that have little concern to them. It is not worth the time and money to government officials to even 'consider' such thoughts...Soooo The best thing we can do is educate people ourselves, such as open public internet message boards, specializing in the proper care of 'Monster Fish' .. Hooray, MFK, the savior! Well not quite, but it's a start!
Now I am sure alot of people will have little spin-off remarks about the stuff I used as example, and they will try to use other examples such as 'people put live plants in the wild and it destroys habitats, should we outlaw them too?'.. Keep in mind, there are alot of things outlawed, such as Anacharis in WA state.. But like I said before, the un-educated will always have a hard time understanding education.
Ok.. I have gone on long enough.
I am not saying I am ANTI-MFK, I am just saying that if these fish weren't so cheap and readily available, then we wouldn't have this problem of them flooding the market, and dying in the millions due to the ignorant and uneducated.
For the longest time I've thought that common folk like myself who buy fish from retailers, specifically rarities and fish that get huge, should be required to obtain a permit or license via mandatory written test. I'm mostly entertained by that thought because like the rest of you, I can't stand to see our aquatic friends get killed by uncaring idiots. I agree with those here who state that regulating fish buying in this fashion would cultivate a blackmarket filled with shady transactions, but would that be worse for the welfare of our beloved fish? I think probably not but I'll leave that up for debate. If the common juvi monsters that we see hords of in the tanks of Walmart, Petsmart and others like them were banned from importation, a jilion clown knifes, pacus, etc. would be saved from the likes of common impulsive moron buyers. The downside of this?
1. Outbreak of Illegally imported fish. Simply put, not a good thing
2. Price of many common fish would soar (and be illegal to buy)
3. Unfair to deserving aquarists like us who spend most of our free time happily
vacuuming crap from gravel
4. Unfair to GOOD retailers who do the same
I would like to see fish, particularly budding tankbusters, taken away from the big coorporate retailers only. It is unlikely that a teenager working the floor at one of those places would enlighten the potential buyer with very much if any critical knowledge. Things would be atleast a notch better if only the independent fish stores were allowed to sell fish but that would be viewed as biased in congress and by Fish-R-Us so to speak. Quite a quagmire isn't it? I'm thankful to be in the presence of others here on MFK who feel the same way. Now let us rant!
1. Outbreak of Illegally imported fish. Simply put, not a good thing
2. Price of many common fish would soar (and be illegal to buy)
3. Unfair to deserving aquarists like us who spend most of our free time happily
vacuuming crap from gravel
4. Unfair to GOOD retailers who do the same
I would like to see fish, particularly budding tankbusters, taken away from the big coorporate retailers only. It is unlikely that a teenager working the floor at one of those places would enlighten the potential buyer with very much if any critical knowledge. Things would be atleast a notch better if only the independent fish stores were allowed to sell fish but that would be viewed as biased in congress and by Fish-R-Us so to speak. Quite a quagmire isn't it? I'm thankful to be in the presence of others here on MFK who feel the same way. Now let us rant!
