I need a medic here!

[turkeyboy85]

You can always send them my way... Im only about two hours away lol, Aclimulate them to the new tank... and do constant water changes at the office. And bring the not so much filter with. Any bacteria that is in that filter will help set up the new tank. But dont mess with the PH up and down stuff, If you are in the market for another motoro i still got one pup left, from my last batch.

 

[DavidW]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I have friend who have kept rays
in that PH range and have been for years. Even breeding them in it.

Amazon Rays come from acidic water, pH6.5 or lower, with almost no mineral buffers, hence is very soft.
pH 8.5 is highly alkaline , loaded with minerals and consequently almost as hard as rocks.
pH is a logarithmic scale so a difference of one pH unit is equivalent to a ten-fold difference. so 6.6 is 10 X more alkaline than 6.5.
6.5 can be considered an ideal ( most rivers where rays are found are around this mark most of the year)
pH 8.5 is 200 times more alkaline than the ideal, this is not just an opinion, this is water chemistry 101.
pH6-pH7.5 is well tolerated, the further you go outside of these parameters the more you stress your ray, and having evolved for an acidic environment with regular pH drops, having extreme alkaline water is more stressful for them than acidic.
Hard water interferes with osmoregulation, rays can develop weird growths, slime coat problems, cloudy eyes and compromised immune systems, so if wounded they won;t heal as well, if sick, which will probably happen more often or be more catastrophic, medications are less effective at higher pH. There are other chemistry problems associated, such as mentioned regarding ammonia toxicity
Any other Amazon egg laying fish could not successfully reproduce in pH 8.5, rays are only able to because of internal fertilization and live birth.

 

[Gr8KarmaSF]

 

[Tom]

Amazon Rays come from acidic water, pH6.5 or lower, with almost no mineral buffers, hence is very soft.
pH 8.5 is highly alkaline , loaded with minerals and consequently almost as hard as rocks.
pH is a logarithmic scale so a difference of one pH unit is equivalent to a ten-fold difference. so 6.6 is 10 X more alkaline than 6.5.
6.5 can be considered an ideal ( most rivers where rays are found are around this mark most of the year)
pH 8.5 is 200 times more alkaline than the ideal, this is not just an opinion, this is water chemistry 101.
pH6-pH7.5 is well tolerated, the further you go outside of these parameters the more you stress your ray, and having evolved for an acidic environment with regular pH drops, having extreme alkaline water is more stressful for them than acidic.
Hard water interferes with osmoregulation, rays can develop weird growths, slime coat problems, cloudy eyes and compromised immune systems, so if wounded they won;t heal as well, if sick, which will probably happen more often or be more catastrophic, medications are less effective at higher pH. There are other chemistry problems associated, such as mentioned regarding ammonia toxicity
Any other Amazon egg laying fish could not successfully reproduce in pH 8.5, rays are only able to because of internal fertilization and live birth.

I don't think we need a lesson in the composition of water as we should all be very familiar with it.
My rays are being kept in 8.0 water and are thriving. They are very healthy and have recovered from wounds in the past within days. Rays can be kept in high range ph for the long term without complications and can have great success with breeding. I do agree 8.5 may be a little bit too high but with what he is dealing with, he and his rays are fine. Yes rays did evolve in soft, acidic water but they are very resilient and adapt easily to new conditions provided they are introduced correctly.

As far as illnesses go, if he is keeping up with his water changes and feeding his rays healthy foods it should never be an issue.

Best ragards,
Tom

 

[Nic]

I disagree that pH doesn't matter. There is a range that rays tolerate outside of their ideal but this is way beyond. pH 8.5 is totally unsuitable for keeping potamotrygon.
Unless you invest in an R/O unit to deal with it you will always have problems.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I have friend who have kept rays
in that PH range and have been for years. Even breeding them in it.

Higher PH makes ammonia more toxic. The PH doesn't harm the rays. If you lower your ph to make ammonia less toxic, your ray will suffer from PH shock

Instead, try do to a large water change or use prime to detoxifies the ammonia that you have.

Your problem may be bio bacteria that's not enough to handle your current level of bio load

stan

What he said...

Should be doing water changes often enough so there is no ammonia.
Just my .02

Immpossible..... you would need to do 100% waterchanges constantly to do this....

Amazon Rays come from acidic water, pH6.5 or lower, with almost no mineral buffers, hence is very soft.
pH 8.5 is highly alkaline , loaded with minerals and consequently almost as hard as rocks.
pH is a logarithmic scale so a difference of one pH unit is equivalent to a ten-fold difference. so 6.6 is 10 X more alkaline than 6.5.
6.5 can be considered an ideal ( most rivers where rays are found are around this mark most of the year)
pH 8.5 is 200 times more alkaline than the ideal, this is not just an opinion, this is water chemistry 101.
pH6-pH7.5 is well tolerated, the further you go outside of these parameters the more you stress your ray, and having evolved for an acidic environment with regular pH drops, having extreme alkaline water is more stressful for them than acidic.
Hard water interferes with osmoregulation, rays can develop weird growths, slime coat problems, cloudy eyes and compromised immune systems, so if wounded they won;t heal as well, if sick, which will probably happen more often or be more catastrophic, medications are less effective at higher pH. There are other chemistry problems associated, such as mentioned regarding ammonia toxicity
Any other Amazon egg laying fish could not successfully reproduce in pH 8.5, rays are only able to because of internal fertilization and live birth.

I don't think we need a lesson in the composition of water as we should all be very familiar with it.
My rays are being kept in 8.0 water and are thriving. They are very healthy and have recovered from wounds in the past within days. Rays can be kept in high range ph for the long term without complications and can have great success with breeding. I do agree 8.5 may be a little bit too high but with what he is dealing with, he and his rays are fine. Yes rays did evolve in soft, acidic water but they are very resilient and adapt easily to new conditions provided they are introduced correctly.

As far as illnesses go, if he is keeping up with his water changes and feeding his rays healthy foods it should never be an issue.

Best ragards,
Tom

You should listen to david, he knows more about rays than you ever will

 

[Nic]

You need to lower your PH and add some form of bio booster... your basically screwed though... go to a LFS and beg them to also sell you alot of cycled bio media...

 

[armac]

David knows best...............

 

[Tom]

I never argued what he saying to be wrong, whatever works for you great.
I agree with alot of what he teaches because he believes in going to most natural way possible (as stated in his other threads).
Ph does play a key role but if you can have success why mess with the water in the first place?

LOL and on the note of knowing more than I ever will, he may know a great deal but more than I ever will? That's silly. Relax. This is not rocket science. I will let you know when I have my degree in Ichthyology and am studying first hand in the Amazon ^^

 

[armac]

I never argued what he saying to be wrong, whatever works for you great.
I agree with alot of what he teaches because he believes in going to most natural way possible (as stated in his other threads).
Ph does play a key role but if you can have success why mess with the water in the first place?

LOL and on the note of knowing more than I ever will, he may know a great deal but more than I ever will? That's silly. Relax. This is not rocket science. I will let you know when I have my degree in Ichthyology and am studying first hand in the Amazon ^^

who said that...........drama queen

 

[Nic]

I never argued what he saying to be wrong, whatever works for you great.
I agree with alot of what he teaches because he believes in going to most natural way possible (as stated in his other threads).
Ph does play a key role but if you can have success why mess with the water in the first place?

LOL and on the note of knowing more than I ever will, he may know a great deal but more than I ever will? That's silly. Relax. This is not rocket science. I will let you know when I have my degree in Ichthyology and am studying first hand in the Amazon ^^

good luck with that... when a person has a uncycled tank and a high PH you dont tell them to not mess with there PH they need to LOWER it to make the ammonia less toxic :common sence: yes i know of people who keep rays in high PH but there are times when you need to LOWER it and this is one of them... at the rate im seeing advice given on this forum from alot of people ill continue to trust david...