Ideal tank dimensions for a Mbu?

Pufferpunk

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So that's oK for us to do it? BTW, RTR wrote that article I 1st linked to, not me. Manitus's puffer died from the fact he couldn't keep the nitrate down, even after being moved into a larger tank. Pufferpuggirl is talking about re-homing her puffer if she can't move it to a much larger tank soon.
 

Fat Homer

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Not sure if you directed that question at me, but no i don't think its right to do it by any means... but at the same time, its not like i can control who buys and doesn't buy an MBU...

All i can personally do is vow to never buy an MBU unless i had an absolutely humongous tank...
 

Pufferpunk

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This comment:
Like in Hong Kong, i see MBU's being sold every time i got out to fish street, and lets be honest, i seriously doubt 99.9% of the people buying them here are putting them in correct size tanks... infact, they;d be lucky to go into a 200G, let alone anything larger...
 

Fat Homer

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Well, obviously its still not okay to do it... but i'm not going to be able to stop the shop from getting MBU's in, nor am i able to stop customers from buying these fish, even though i've tried a few times...

I guess the other problem with Hong Kong is a lot of the shops here sell fish which get way too large for most peoples home aquarium (i.e. Gars, RTC's), and don't tell the customer its going to outgrow their tank even when they ask what size tanks they have, and i can tell you this happens at pretty much every single shop i've been to except 2 out of almost 100 shops...

Instead, they normally tell a customer to get another one if anything... not to mention, in Hong Kong, having a tank which is say 24" - 36" is already considered extremely large for most average households here...
 

Clay

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Fat Homer;4393432; said:
I mean if consider the adult size of an MBU at say 3' in a 10'-12' tank,
This is one of the things I'm talking about. You're assuming the fish reach 3'. I asked if there were any confirmed 36" fish, and the largest we (as a group) came up with was a 26-28" (estimated). I'm not sure they reach 3' in captivity - regardless of the tank. Certainly there has to be someone who has provided the 1000g tank to an mbu? What are THEIR results? was 1000 more than enough? Was it too small?

In the end, I'll probably go a different direction, but this is one of the reasons internet boards are so problematic. Passing opinion as fact because someone else said so is a poor method of bringing about an increased knowledge in the hobby. Understanding why, being able to explain why, and then presenting that in a polite manner DOES bring about an improved hobby.

I think a lot of people do some good work and pass on some good information (pufferpunk), but I was looking to engage in a discussion about the links I posted, not be condemned for even thinking about putting an mbu in a 375. If you accept that fact that my intentions are noble (providing the best environment possible), and get over the idea that OMG 3' 3' 3', you guys might understand that there is a) enough room in my house for another tank, and b) enough capital to provide such a tank, then perhaps this could be more of a discussion and less of a vilification.

With as many mbus in circulation as there are, isn't is better to know that one at least has a shot at a 375g (with a great environment) than knowing that it'll end up in a 55g tank until it nearly bursts at the seams? It's not like people are sending these fish BACK to the Congo. They either live here or die here. Wouldn't that example be considered a rescue from a pet store or importer?
 

Pufferpunk

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Then there's the school of thought, that every mbu that is purchased for a 375g tank, another one is removed from a river to replace the "great seller" at the LFS.
 

Fat Homer

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Clay you make a good argument, but here is the problem as i see it, if people stopped buying MBU's from shops, then they would almost definitely stop importing them to said shop, especially if no one wants them and they end up dying... so in a way, by rescuing one, you just give the shop a reason to bring another one in (supply and demand)... and lets be honest, there is only so many fish we can save...

Now on to the next point, i guess the ONLY person here on MFK (at least as far as i know) who could give you correct info on how well a MBU does in a much larger space than needed would be the guy on here who has a 52K Gallon tank as well as a 15K Gallon tank, since if i remember correctly, he has an MBU in one of those tanks... so if any one can tell you, it would be him... although i'm not sure how long hes had his, or how big its atm...

Lastly, i don't think there are enough people here who have tried giving an MBU the space they needed to find out if they would be able to grow to their full length... since most people believe that 500G is enough... and as we have seen, they don't grow to their expected 3FT length... which i'll admit could be due to lots of different reasons other than just tank size... i mean even being in a shops small tank for too long at the beginning could easily stunt a MBU and affect how big said fish grows...

-EDIT-

PP Beat me to the punch...
 

Pufferpunk

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Personally, I think there is a lot more to stunting than just one or two big items. Fish health and the ability to reach full genetic potential depends on a multitude of factors including the genetics, a healthy near-environment (basically water quality for fish), an appropriate environment (this includes decor, swimming space, refuge, current, lighting), and suitable food in sufficient quantity but not in excess.

You need to know how big the fish should be (Fishbase is a reliable source for this), what sort of water and physical environment the fish lives in (TPF and the Pufferpedia and Ebert for this), and what its lifestyle is a schooler, lurking predator, active hunter predator, whatever, whether or not it allows or even may need conspecific or perhaps dither tankmates, or none at all. Any of these can and likely will change during development for any given fish.

Tank size hits several of these points, it allows for areas of current, for visually complex setups to explore, and space for swimming. Plus, it plays on my signature line of the answer to pollution is dilution. With increased water volume, pollutants of whatever type will be at lower concentration than the same bioload will give in smaller quarters.

Many or most fish seem to like areas of current, many do “play� or exercise in the current. Hunters get some just by exploration of a complex environment. Schoolers (Auriglobus when young, Colomesus throughout their life) absolutely must have it or they will show a caged animal's stereotyped behavior just to work off activity normal and in effect hard-wired into the animal. Fish need exercise. All mobile animals need exercise. Koi kept in shallow ponds do not develop normal configurations. They are too long and slender. They need depth as well as length and width. Without exercise, muscle mass will not be in normal proportion to frame and internal organs. Puffers have less structured skeletons than most fish (adaptation to puffing), so IMHO they need to have whatever exercise they are willing to do to allow normal physical development. The space or volume bit has impact here as well. Pollution, whether from metabolites or hormones of general organics, suppresses normal growth and development. What levels of which are important? We do not know. We do that it varies from family to family for various pollutants over a substantial range. It is highly likely to vary from species to species within a family. In the best of all possible worlds, tanks would all be a high multiple of the length of the fish housed there. In reality, we rarely can provide that other than for the smallest fish. But we try to just as much volume as we can. We provide both current and relative calm, without having totally dead areas, in the tank, and we match the decor to the lifestyle of the fish.

Naturally, we feed both well and wisely. We meet the fish's nutritional needs and for the special needs of puffers and physical food suited to the particular fish. We provide enough to allow the fish to grow normally, but not so much that the fish is obese. Obesity is as great an issue for fish as for people and dogs. Too much food, not the best food, and feeding too often, all lead to problems.

Water quality I'll assume as a given. Un-oxidized metabolites (ammonia and/or nitrite) are never detectable, oxidized metabolites (nitrate) are as low as is practical for us to provide, but certainly below 40 ppm nitrate, better below 20 ppm, best at or below 10 ppm. Organics are kept low by large water changes at sufficiently short intervals that hobby testable water parameters are never far off from the source water used for the tank (whether tap or processed or otherwise modified). That means the water you remove should be quite close to the water you will replace it with, excepting perhaps the nitrate titer, and the organic (which we cannot measure).

IF you can provide all of this, your fish will, on the average, exceed the normal lifespan of the species in the wild, and frequently will be as large as if not larger than the wild counterparts. Anything less is stunting. Anything less will result in lower health and shorter life.
 

TheCanuck

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Most websites claim they only get 24", yet still suggest 1000+. There is obviously a reason, have you ever kept a puffer long term? Or known anyone that has? Maybe thats why we don't see three foot puffers. Maybe its because we have so many people using justification as a sorry excuse to be selfish to an animals life for our entertainment. These puffers go a little more beyond being put in a glass box and being just perfect. This is a species of fish that have special requirements and need the larger tank even when small for a reason. So maybe your 375 will be fine until 18-24inches, but then you need to get him in a 1000g at least. You would be committing yourself to buying then when you purchased the fish.

Just for thought...
 

Clay

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Fat Homer;4394014; said:
Now on to the next point, i guess the ONLY person here on MFK (at least as far as i know) who could give you correct info on how well a MBU does in a much larger space than needed would be the guy on here who has a 52K Gallon tank as well as a 15K Gallon tank, since if i remember correctly, he has an MBU in one of those tanks...
Yes, I know Mike; we have talked several times. I first met him in 2001? 2002? I can't remember, but it was one of the ACA conventions. He invited me up to visit, but I never did make it to Canada. However, we talked quite a bit about his huge tanks and birds.

According to fishbase (per Pufferpunk's suggestion - although I had already looked this up many times before :) ), the max size is 67cm, which = 26.37" (67/2.54), so a shade over 2 ft. This is more inline with the point I was making earlier on in the thread... are we sure it's a 3' fish? I am not so sure.
http://fishbase.org/Summary/speciesSummary.php?ID=10103&genusname=Tetraodon&speciesname=mbu

All, thanks for bringing this back in to a civilized discussion; much more pleasant!

As far as the idea of rescuing an mbu feeding into the perpetual cycle of fish in fish out, how do you feel about the mbu that are in stores now? Are they sacrificial lambs to live out the remainder of their lives in a fish store to prove a point in hopes the aquarium industry grows a sense of morality? Or is it in hopes that low sales mean fewer imports? That's a large scale because importers do the ordering. Trickle down theory would take a long time, I think. It's a double edged sword. (I'm not providing an opinion, rather asking the question in hopes it inspires thought).

Canuck, what influenced your decision to put sharks and an eel in a tank less than "suitable" (<--- not meant to offend) for their max size?
 
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