is fish keeping immoral??

[jcardona1]

I don't agree with that at all. Have you ever heard of training your fish? Its very possible. Read a book on psychology you'll understand its possible lol.

relax Fish Whisperer. theres a huge difference between being able to understand, think, comprehend and rationalize vs learning to associate a certain behavior with a food reward. in that case all my fish are "trained", because as soon as i walk by the tank they get all excited since they know its feeding time.

stop humanizing fish, its stupid. as mentioned, there are certain animals that are far more advanced, such as dogs, dolphins, parrots, apes, etc. and keeping some of these locked in a cage could be considered immoral. but fish in an aquarium, i dont think so

when's the last time your fish looked upset, sad, or depressed? as i said, if the fish is healthy, fed regularly, has good water quality and sufficient room to move around, it wont know the difference

 

[Scubarod]

I don't agree with that at all. Have you ever heard of training your fish? Its very possible. Read a book on psychology you'll understand its possible lol.

Have you not heard of Ivan Petrovich Pavlov???...how about Pavolv's Dog Experiements.....Now i know that a dog is a far cry from A fish, but none the less.....they can be taught by stimulation alone no higher brain function need other than Primitive Functions.

I believe it is immoral when you consider that for every fish that makes its way into an aquarium; > 5 have died in the harvesting and redistribution process (including those that die shortly after introduction into our aquariums). No other pet has that high of a fatality ratio.

I disagree....the dog industry is filled with deaths every year...if you did not know, they cull every undesirable dog...this means that they are put to death because it does not conform to physical or aesthetic traits.

 

[toddhgr]

While i think the whole debate is interesting.. the simple answer is is.. No more or less then anyone else keeping any type of creature in captivity. Personally as someone else stated.. I'm against man made hybrids. While hybridization itself is natural. It's generally used to improve a base species genetics... not astetically please people... Blood parrots are a prime example imo of bad fishkeeping. I've seen about 1/2 these fish with physical complications resulting from their mouths. You see this alot in other animal species such as respitory problems in pugs. Just for example. a Vast majority of dogs and cats are so "captively inbred" That they have changed to resemble nothing like the original breeds. I this this happening in the fishkeeping community as well now. A vast Majority of my fish are Captively bred, The ones that are wild caught I try to offer an opportunity to breed.

It's always a fine moral line.

I think hybrids are playing god, and wrong. But I don't hold it against people who choose to keep or breed these animals if done in a responsible way. I have no use for a Blood parrot, Flower horn, or Glo-tetra. Just to name the top 3 i hear the most about.

Good fish keepers imo who breed fish strive to keep the pureness that is the fish's "wild" type. Sure bring out it's natural colors more. But breed a solid, hearty fish.

big dovii you also raise a good point as to fishkeepings strain on the environment. I'm fairly confident it is no more or less then what "strain" a dog or cat would put on the environment, and indeed less then ourselves. workign in a LFS you see the "industrial" side of things and useage. as for the salt in SW tanks doing damage, salt can destroy plants.. to what extent, and at what levels. I'm not an expert by any means. But I can pretty much gaurantee you it's alot less hazardous then the super farm a few miles down the road from me w/ however many hundreds of head they milk now. The chemicals pumped into the food they feed those cows then what goes into the milk you drink. The environmental strain is already being seen here and it's been less 'n 10 yrs. since the megafarm was built. may sound like I'm compareing apples to oranges. But my point is fishkeeping "looks" worse then actuality i believe at least on that level. That is not to say we fishkeepers should not be always trying to find more environmentally friendly ways of keeping our fish.

Never seen this show the cove before. But I know dolphins have bred in captivity, as well as a large handful of other aquatic mammals. If this trainer truely felt the way they did they should be working to "free willy" and not belittle their chosen profession infront of millions of people. If what they think they are doing with their knowledge of the dolphin and captive husbandry is wrong. Then to still do it w/ the beliefs it's torture/abuse/ect ... Is worse 'n someone out of ignorance tossing an Oscar in a 10 gallon tank.

And Turning the channel teaches you nothing. Walking away from things is the F'd Up American way. And it's wrong.

But thats all just my oppinion

I'd like you to explain that statment about the chemicals being pumped into the cows feed. I am a partial owner of a 500 head dairy farm and we nor any other farm that I am aware of uses any type of dangerous chemical in the feed of our animals. As a rule all that goes into the feed of dairy animals are various grains, minerals, and grasses. Sorry to get off topic, but the single largest threat to my livelyhood and many others is a lack of knowledge on the part of the public. If you have any questions or comments about the dairy industry please pm me and I would be glad to discuss them with you.

 

[Deepsouth]

I honestly think that it is somewhat unethical. Like everyone else has said, it depends on the tank size and what it is stocked with. Tons of people have aggressive fish together. The reason that many are aggressive is because they have an instinctive area that they claim in the wild. So basically 1 aggressive cichlid per 6' or so should be the norm. I have Frontosas and I feel that they really should belong in the wild. I have mine in a 8' 240, but I still think they need more space. When it comes down to it most of the fish we keep would be on a barbecue in their home country if they weren't in tanks.

 

[PufferFace]

Well I know no one has successfully bred Fahakas and that doesn't necessarily mean that its immoral. Personally, I think its immoral when you see huge fish in small tanks or even a bunch of big fish in a bigger tank. My Fahaka is in a 150g right now, but I plan on getting a 180g in the near future just so he has more room to swim. They say 125g is minimum, but imo, 180g is more like minimum. I dont think a fish would be satisfied just swimming from one end and then be barely able to turn around and swim to the other end and then repeat its cycle.

 

[Bottomfeeder]

has anyone seen the cove?? if not, the dolphin trainer said that dolphin undergo high stress in captivity and why dont fish breed in tanks??

What? Fish breed all the time in captivity. Most fish have been spwaned at one time or another. In fact, this forum has a whole section devoted to breeding, lol

 

[krzr3000]

For the majority on MFK? No or any of those in the knowledgeable fishkeeping community. But how about those that buy 5g and stuff 10 goldfish in it, plecos....or buy "NEMO" and put in a freshwater bowl? Bettas?

Working at a fish shop will give you an opinion, you are sending animals to their death sentence for the bottom line (profits). They may not be wild caught so its not bad for natural populations, but whats the point to look at a fish for a month as it slowly dies?

 

[perdeep007]

who are we as humans to prescribe the amount of space a fish needs to swim, how do we really know our fish are happy or not and what mental capacity they really posses?? as for dogs being breed in captivity, thats the reason why they were breed and over years of assimlation they learned the live as PETS for the human species. its with this reasoning i only believe in hybrids.

 

[justonemoretank]

I think this thread is one of the more interesting that I've read on MFK.

Yes, it's selfish. We keep these animals in a box for our own enjoyment. However, these animals also benefit. The tetras I keep would have been food long ago to the Pacu or RTC I keep, if they were all still in the wild. Granted, is a life half-lived life worth living? How the heck do they know? They all seem to enjoy themselves as much as I enjoy them. Call it a symbiotic relationship.

As for the captive-bred ones, you know, each of my indoor cats has accidentally gotten outside once. Each cat froze in his tracks until I came to get him. This would be the same for any captive-bred fish. I think the situation is more black-and-white there.

And, as for hybrids, I have never kept one. I personally don't find them appealing. However, I did keep fancy goldfish, and had all of them die on me within a year to a year and a half. My fishkeeping was up to par; it was the fishes' anatomy that was screwed up, I have decided. I personally would rather keep a fish which Evolution has built to survive than one which man, in all his infinite wisdom, has created for aesthetic reasons.

I do the maintenance it takes to keep Nitrate low for a reason, and that's because I feel a sense of duty to the animal whose life I've taken responsbility of. The same for ensuring a somewhat adequate living space, though, I'm sure, the natural habitat in no way compares. Feeding good, tasty foods -- the same. That's what I can do for these fish to ensure that they're getting back at least some of the benefits they give to me.

 

[Lupin]

By your perception, Perdeep, there is no reason why hybrids cannot be exempted from your view towards fish requiring the amount of space it needs to swim. I find it hypocritical to criticize why fishkeeping is immoral when at this very minute, we have fish in our hands.