Well, you have wild animals in captivity that were extricated against their will from their native environments and placed into synthetic environments that we presume to create for our personal gratification. Certainly, it would be cruel if you then proceeded to deliberately inflict pain and discomfort on them. Would it be cruel if you were simply a less-than-competent aquariast who couldnt maintain proper water conditions and unintentionally inflicted discomfort on them, rather than deliberately? And what if the water was just slightly suboptimal
so they were just slightly uncomfortable? Of course, all of these complex questions would be moot if you simply avoided the hobby in the first place. However, very few of us are dissuaded by the pivotal act, which is to take them out of their native environments to begin with and then place their comfort, health and lives at risk in a synthetic environment of questionable quality. Very few are further dissuaded by the death of a few or even many. We return to the lfs and try again and again. Basically, you have power over these animals and you are exercising it for your personal pleasure. All other considerations are essentially irrelevant. The best sense you can arrive at is that it is not cruel if you make a dedicated attempt to establish proper living conditions, regardless of your eventual level of success.
Is fishkeeping cruel?
- Thread starter OnceLoyal
- Start date
I'm glad you made the thread , I enjoy hearing views on more important things related to fishkeepkeeping.
What i think is great is that when we've been keeping and being being exposed to these fish we suddenly appreciate them more. We care if they are becoming extinct in the wild or if there habitat is being destroyed, because suddenly it's in the aquarists best interest to preserve the wild fish.
Blackwater-Yes i don't think that keeping most fish is cruel except (especially when there are caring aquarists ,if like you say keeping an open water fish in a small tank like a tuna of something, bad idea lol. Yes fish have instincts but i remember reading even salmon hatched in fisheries for the wild had a much lower survival rate.
Spankbelly-True i think you're saying they may never get a wild experience but it's not fair to say they aren't going to have an environment like their original habitat. Really fine line i think but fish born in captivity never known their original home and they certainly can't imagine it. I think there instincts can be negative especially if they are too active or aggressive and suddenly you stick them with fish they would normally never encounter. Suddenly, you are in a way complicating a fish's life. I don't think that you can rate quality of life in a fish as i don't usually see something so small as individual.
Fishkeeping is ornamental or for the fun of collecting but it seems like the most rewarding part should be creating an miniature environment that stimulates the fish or species in a positive way so you can observe it in a kinda natural environment. I don't see a problem with bare tanks, though they may look unappealing, most of those fish are in open waters anyway.
What I think is cruel is putting aggressive fish together just to fight them
-dyeing fish
-over catching fish that are endangered
-no cleaning tanks ,clean water.
What i think is great is that when we've been keeping and being being exposed to these fish we suddenly appreciate them more. We care if they are becoming extinct in the wild or if there habitat is being destroyed, because suddenly it's in the aquarists best interest to preserve the wild fish.
Blackwater-Yes i don't think that keeping most fish is cruel except (especially when there are caring aquarists ,if like you say keeping an open water fish in a small tank like a tuna of something, bad idea lol. Yes fish have instincts but i remember reading even salmon hatched in fisheries for the wild had a much lower survival rate.
Spankbelly-True i think you're saying they may never get a wild experience but it's not fair to say they aren't going to have an environment like their original habitat. Really fine line i think but fish born in captivity never known their original home and they certainly can't imagine it. I think there instincts can be negative especially if they are too active or aggressive and suddenly you stick them with fish they would normally never encounter. Suddenly, you are in a way complicating a fish's life. I don't think that you can rate quality of life in a fish as i don't usually see something so small as individual.
Fishkeeping is ornamental or for the fun of collecting but it seems like the most rewarding part should be creating an miniature environment that stimulates the fish or species in a positive way so you can observe it in a kinda natural environment. I don't see a problem with bare tanks, though they may look unappealing, most of those fish are in open waters anyway.
What I think is cruel is putting aggressive fish together just to fight them
-dyeing fish
-over catching fish that are endangered
-no cleaning tanks ,clean water.
I love all my pets, including the fish, and more often than not I prefer them to people.
If anyone of them has a need we do our absolute best to meet it..... whether that be food, room, shelter, medicine or even humane euthanasia that is what we do.
The only pet I truly have mixed feelings for is birds in cages, it just seems wrong to me, even though I know some very loved and happy large parrots.
I am often told I am cruel for keeping a husky in oklahoma heat, or using a pinch collar when I take him for walks.
I just laugh at these people as I know I will get home and find him sleeping on his designated cool gel bed right on top of an airconditioner vent more than likely chewing on his giant bone or working on getting frozen yogurt and hamburger meat out of his kong.
And then rather then keeping him cooped up we will go for at least 5 mile walk which would not be possible without the self correcting pinch collar. No more ripped shoulders or miserable walks, one good tug and he corrects himself and we can walk jog to our hearts content.
Cruel would be keeping him tied to a post with no shade and ignoring his need for exercise and interaction.
Cruel is keeping a fancy goldfish or an oscar in a 5 or 10 gallon tank, or never changing their water. Cruel is not feeding fish because you want them to die or housing aggressive fish with peaceful ones while getting some sort of satisfaction from watching them get hurt.
Cruel is a betta in a cup for life.
If anyone of them has a need we do our absolute best to meet it..... whether that be food, room, shelter, medicine or even humane euthanasia that is what we do.
The only pet I truly have mixed feelings for is birds in cages, it just seems wrong to me, even though I know some very loved and happy large parrots.
I am often told I am cruel for keeping a husky in oklahoma heat, or using a pinch collar when I take him for walks.
I just laugh at these people as I know I will get home and find him sleeping on his designated cool gel bed right on top of an airconditioner vent more than likely chewing on his giant bone or working on getting frozen yogurt and hamburger meat out of his kong.
And then rather then keeping him cooped up we will go for at least 5 mile walk which would not be possible without the self correcting pinch collar. No more ripped shoulders or miserable walks, one good tug and he corrects himself and we can walk jog to our hearts content.
Cruel would be keeping him tied to a post with no shade and ignoring his need for exercise and interaction.
Cruel is keeping a fancy goldfish or an oscar in a 5 or 10 gallon tank, or never changing their water. Cruel is not feeding fish because you want them to die or housing aggressive fish with peaceful ones while getting some sort of satisfaction from watching them get hurt.
Cruel is a betta in a cup for life.
Arachnar;1934439; said:
you hit the nail on the head.
fishkeeping when done right is less cruel than nature by beaps and lounds
brianp;1934394; said:
Some people are less likely to care about there fish and do just keep buying more. I really isn't that cruel if you try and eventually provide a suitable environment, you could say keeping any pet is cruel.
I'm one of those people that feels sad about any fish that i am responsible for when it dies. I have absolutley no idea what to do with one of my tanks that is filled with guppies that i don't want. They were destined to be feeders at the store but now i have tens of them and feel guilty about giving them to the store to be eaten
.We can't overrationalize personalites or emotions in animals that aren't there, but we do anyway.
Wow, this thread got a little deeper than I had imagined... Thx for all the true responses. I am happy there are so many out there that actually care about their hobby's and realize the massive responsibility you took on when you got involved in this.
i think its a larger responsibility than many realise with some fish, such as clown loaches and clown fish (marine i know), living for many decades with 25yrs+ not being uncommon for clown fish.
BlackwaterFL;1933572; said:
Well, all depends on the way you look at it I guess!
And don't forget, they might be well fed and healthy now, but it takes one little mistake too much from you and they are all dead.... we might care for them and love em, but just think that for each wild caught fish you have
so many died from the stress of being caught and transported, and then more die after being dumped in the pet store tank. Then think of how many ignorant people, serious fish keeping beginners, clumsy people, people who don't care, parents who want to please their 5 year old, and downright cruel people will buy the fish you did not (but that winded up there so passionates like you could get one).
Not all fish "catchers" are very respectfull of nature either, and some don't mind at all over-catching rare fish and depleting the wild stocks... think of how many endangered species wind up in the black market (and not always the "black" one... heck I've seen toucans and monkeys at some ordinary pet stores!!!
). Ya you might think "well they would not do that cause that's stupid cause then they have no more to capture and sell"... but that is exactly what humans do with all of nature... soooooo.... plus if one specie gets depleted they can always collect a new one! 
"How would they have taken care of that in nature? The bluegills are already begging for food and are not scared of my presence at all. They seem as intrested to check me out as I am to check them. They will never have to worry about predation. They have a doctor 24/7, clean water, plenty of live plants and more than enough food. Kinda like fish heaven."
I might agree that in some case some fish are so well taken care of that they probably are better off in captivity... unfortunately most people don't have the talent or passion and many buy them as decorations (think of all the little kids wanting "Nemo" in their fish bowl..... or pirhanas, pacus, Oscars, arowanas and terrors cause they are so awesome to own...
)Another thing I feel like mentioning (sorry I know this is getting long! XD
) I feel people should be carefull with that kind of thinking as well.... cause that is exactly the kind of thinking that makes people think that dolphins are so "lucky" to be captive at Sea World, Walt Disney, and Marine Land, and that lions and gorillas must be so happy to live in zoos.... course the level of intelligence between fish and these mammals are a little NOT FROM THE SAME PLANE OF EXISTANCE... but people tend to not realize that for some reason...They will put all creatures in the same basket following one base logic, which is "Well I would be happy getting free all-you-can-eat buffet everyday, free med attention when I need it, no risks of danger or predation EVER, free clean air, someone doing the cleaning for me, and all I'd have to ever do is watch T.V sitting on my a** " problem is... what seems LOGICALLY good and wonderfull to us does not necessarily means all other living creature will agree... so I believe we should be carefull with this kind of logic, as it has been used over and over... and rarely in good terms...
"Holy servants of God are happy and honoured to serve their master and sacrifice their entire lives for him, how could they possibly not??? Thus it will be an honour for them to now go suffer inhumane conditions and die form a slow agony in his name. "
"Look mommy Nemo is happy in his new sophisticatedly decorated fish bowl, with pretty bright flashing lights and lots of bubbles coming from his bubbler (really how could he not? Its such an "awesome" fish bowl after all....
)""Red is the color of satan, Satan is the enemy of God, God wants his enemies to perish. Satan is evil, thus red is evil, thus all people born red-headed are evil spawns of satan and must die."
I think if your passionate and devoted to the brim and your FISH are healthy and "look kinda happy" then perhapse they might be better off in your hands then in the wild where things would be way harsher.... then again this is using HUMAN logic so I might be so very wrong about it... you see how it works, its just basing things on feelings and impression and turning them into solid beliefs...just hope I'm right though! I also like thinking my fishies are "happier" with me than they would in the wild....
Its wrong and right at the same time...
Its wrong because you cannot ask the fish if they would like to live in an artificially perfect world.
But its right because you provide the fish with almost perfect living conditions and even go above and beyond when the fish is struggling.
In the end I dont think the fish really notice or care. A fish swims along a stream thinking "Wheres food...wheres food" then someone nets it up puts it in a tank and then the fish starts thinking "Wheres food...wheres food". Only this time he always gets it when he needs it.
Its wrong because you cannot ask the fish if they would like to live in an artificially perfect world.
But its right because you provide the fish with almost perfect living conditions and even go above and beyond when the fish is struggling.
In the end I dont think the fish really notice or care. A fish swims along a stream thinking "Wheres food...wheres food" then someone nets it up puts it in a tank and then the fish starts thinking "Wheres food...wheres food". Only this time he always gets it when he needs it.
