Is he doomed?! :(

[Coryloach]

One page stated the following for a similar German product. (Hexamor): This drug has not been found by FDA to be safe and effective, and this labeling has not been approved by FDA.
https://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/drugInfo.cfm?setid=3052fe15-9413-4859-aee8-ace2c9b16ef4

Well, that's funny because metronidazole is not sold here either. I imported mine at the time.

Here is a page with a sale link to 2-Amino-5-nitrothiazole in Canada

http://smallmolecules.com/product/121-66-4-torontoresearchchemicals-2-amino-5-nitrothiazole-100g/

 

[RD.]

I saw that page, @ $45 gram, and no instructions for treating spironucleus in ornamental fish. We have plenty of fish meds here in Canada. lol South of where the OP lives, with the number of Asian shops in the GTA I suspect that even Thai meds such as Clear can be had, if it comes to that. If I'm not mistaken, souzie successfully treated her Flowerhorn with that med in the past so she might know where a cheap source can be found.

But again, for now I wouldn't be in a big hurry to toss more meds at this fish.

 

[philipraposo1982]

Last night Kai had a bit of irritation around his head. He did the whole flip over and rub on the substrate. Lasted about a minute do.multiple passes bit them.stopped.

Any thoughts on the inside of the mouth being red in one section?

 

[souzie]

RD. You are correct! I did treat my FH with Clear. It's not the same seller but I got mine from Ebay..

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Clear-Medi...164759?hash=item3b00b88b57:g:FmEAAOSwi0RX1Ml5

philipraposo1982 I'm so sorry you and your fish are going through this. It's heartbreaking when you try everything in your power to help your pet and nothing seems to be working. I went through it with my FH...at first the treatments would work and he would bounce back and then would get sick again. I would resume treatment and he would get better and then get sick again and in the end, I couldn't save him.

Would it be possible to have a vet in your area come and take a look at him? I was finally able to track down someone...she was the resident vet at Ripley's Aquarium in Toronto to see my FH but sadly, he passed away before she could make it.

Also, I didn't read everything posted...just skimmed through it since I was tagged by RD but have you considered maybe the Metro treatments aren't working is because the bacteria have developed a resistance to the medication?

 

[philipraposo1982]

I would be really interested if you could pass on the fish vet info. I have tried to find someone specialized here in Kitchener Waterloo area without luck.

When I think back to when I first got Kai and how all the issues came about, it makes a fair bit of sense now.

He always had issues with his waste. It's pretty likely that the capillaria parasite was responsible for this. As the parasite is taking its toll it creates the opportunity for the s. Vortens to go to work.

At first I made some assumptions that were wrong, followed by some treatments that I don't think worked well.

The hex shield I tried for a while wasn't accepted by Kai. The prazipro wasn't the right med for the parasite as at the time I didn't have a proper Id untill I get the scope.

Treated the water with metro early on but as I came to learn it's not water soluble and is really not effective unless fed.

Once I finally treated with levamisole and got rid of the capillaria I think things got alot better. I tried feeding his food with metro and focus and that seemed to go well too.

At that point things were much improved but then symptoms starting reappearing and the pimple formed. This is where I .at a loss. Nothing I can see is causing stress that would weaken Kai and allow for reinfection.

I feed high end foods, I do very religious water changes and keep nitrates super low. Temps are stable, ph is high but very stable. No aggression in the tank ect. So I really am quite puzzled as to what caused this relapse.

The symptoms that reappeared were in this order. Clear wastes shows up again, mild random.flashing, then finally the pimple that ruptured.

Seems like hith to me.

Doing the kanaplex thing now and the fish are doing fine with the dose. I notice the clear poops are gone but not sure how to explain it. Kanaplex is supposed to be bacteria fighting.

The flashing is not as much but still catching him rubbing his head like once a day for a few seconds. Nothing crazy like before but still there. Kanaplex will be done on thirsday.

I'm going to do some.lathe water changes after and follow up with levamisole treatment because one of my.clow loaches is looking like it has parasite issues. He is just too thin compared to the others.

So maybe that's the key. When I got the clowns they brought something with them. Maybe Kai for it and started the cycle over...

I'm really not sure but I'm hoping in a bit of time I can get past this for good.

 

[ryansmith83]

You’re really overmedicating these fish. I think you’re hurting yourself rather than helping by continually dumping drugs in the tank. I watch discus people do this and the fish end up with such weak immune systems that they basically become drug dependent and constantly get sick. I would finish this current treatment and then focus on feeding him and doing water changes. If it’s eating and there are no signs of hex in his feces when you scope it, there is no reason to be treating it.

 

[philipraposo1982]

The kanaplex was recommended by a few here for bacterial infection.

The only other thing I will be doing is the levamisole which is pretty much harmless.

Outside of that I'm not doing any other meds.

What exactly do you feel I'm doing that is not necessary?

 

[souzie]

I would be really interested if you could pass on the fish vet info. I have tried to find someone specialized here in Kitchener Waterloo area without luck.

Her name is Dr. Sandra Fazakas.
fishvetontario@gmail.com

I was in contact with her back in 2015 so I hope her info is still current.

I'm not sure if Kitchener is in her practice range but if not, she offers a service to assist a local vet in handling your case. If she does visit herself, her fee is $100 + HST and a travel fee of 45 cents per kilometre. Additional tests and treatment will be extra. She brings her supplies with her and will most likely use sedation. She says most house calls fall in the range of $300-$400 depending on what procedures she performs.

Again, it was awhile ago so I'm not sure if the prices she quoted me are still in effect. Hope that helps!

 

[RD.]

I don't see this as over medicating. The OP's fish had a clear case of HITH, he treated using the most obvious med for this condition - Metronidazole. He may have used too much at the time, but clearly this wasn't going to resolve itself with just clean water and a good diet. He later discovered worms and dewormed his fish. Again, these worms weren't about to go away on their own.

Now we have a relapse, bacterial, possibly, something internal? Who knows, often even a vet won't be able to pinpoint a direct cause, unless the fish is dead, and a necropsy is performed. Souzie could be right in that the pathogen have built a resistance to Metronidazole, it can happen, and/or it could be this fish is just a genetically weak specimen. That happens too. In the wild it's mother natures way of culling the weak. It's just a guessing game at this point.

I would still give this fish a break after the Kanaplex, often in groups of clown loaches one will be smaller, runtier looking than the rest. I have one like that in my group, he's not sick, he's most likely a male, at the bottom of the food chain. Don't let your mind play tricks on you. You were convinced when you got these loaches they were all healthy, from a trusted source. Just my thoughts .....

 

[neutrino]

Re: the flashing/scratching, let me ask a stupid question-- do you routinely add salt (NACL, aquarium salt or one of its equivalents, not Epsom salt) to your tank? I've seen that be an unsuspected cause of irritation and flashing-- might be low on the list of possibilities, but it is a possibility. Another is that until the spot fully heals it's extra sensitive to irritants, including the end products of meds as they react with substances in the water. In other words, flashing doesn't always mean infection by something. If the flashing is diminishing it doesn't necessarily mean an infection was still there and is going away, it may be as simple as the spot is naturally becoming less sensitive and irritated as it heals-- to illustrate, have you ever had a wound that itches, feels weird, or is extra sensitive while it's healing?

I wont say whether you've already been overmedicating, but as I indicated earlier it would be a concern for me in the long term. Meds can mess with intestinal balance (or immune system) and ultimately affect a fish's health and vigor, also the biological balance of the tank itself (another possibility for the flashing if there are more irritants in the water than you'd have in a pristine, untreated tank) especially with multiple rounds of meds. So in that respect my fishkeeping philosophy is similar to Ryan's and, if it was me, I'd be anxious to see how things go when the fish and tank itself get a break from all the treatments, and hopefully return to a normal immune/digestive/systemic balance.