Is it safe to feed feeder crickets and compost worms to my cichlids?

[petspoiler]

....

Also, from the list of pathogens, parasites, etc. you can find those that can infect both fish and mammals, for example, cestodes (tapeworms). If someone doubts whether any of the worm carried parasites mentioned in the article applies to fish, try looking up capillaria just for starters. In fact, here's an article on it.

I'm just trying to contribute some information that in my opinion is relevant, that's all. ................

........, in effect I've said here's something about earthworms not everyone knows and at least some might want to know. ...........

I do think it's worth examining any data as related to possible affects on fish health. but I'm no biologist & researching the various pathogens listed is a task in itself.
I'm less inclined to use worms from outdoors. I'm not sure if I really "get it" about things found in bait worms.

 

[dogofwar]

I am... even re-read it.

Lots and lots of creatures can carry pathogens and serve as hosts or transmitters for various parasites, including, of course, earthworms.

The question is the level of risk. No food is 100% risk free. Even commercially prepared foods have some risk. Blackworms and other commonly sold and fed live foods also have risks. As do feeder fish and tubifex worms.

My issue is that you are over-emphasizing the possible, albeit improbable and poorly understood or documented risks of nematodes or other pathogens in cultured red wiggler worms. What you've posted isn't even about red wiggler worms! And it's certainly not about the experiences of hobbyists (as has been done for decades) in feeding them to their fish.

It would be a shame for you to turn people off of culturing red wiggler worms - that they're just too risky to feed to their fish - based on what you post.

The bottom line is this: I have no qualms in recommending the inclusion of red wiggler worms in the diet of fish that can handle "meat" in their diets. I've never experienced nor have I heard from any of my fellow "red worm wranglers" any of the possible issues that you've identified.
In the same time period, I've heard countless horror stories from use of feeder fish, black worms, tubifex and other live foods.

I've been culturing and feeding red wigglers for years and have reduced my prepared food costs by ~15% and have eliminated the purchase of any live or frozen foods for my fishes' diet. I've spawned and raised lots and lots of healthy fish in the same time.

In my book, there are plenty of tangible benefits and few, if any, risks.

Matt

LOL... are you even reading what I'm writing?

Again (see second paragraph in my last post). Nowhere have I said

In fact, various species of worms can actually clean up dirty soils, toxic wastes, etc., actually making them safer. Properly cultured red wigglers may be the safest food on the planet for man or beast for all I know. But does this make all earthworms safe or make earthworms as potential victims or carriers of pathogens my personal unfounded hypothesis?

...Well, let's see:
Article


Article
(Fish don't normally eat terrestrial earthworms unless we provide them as bait or fish food.)

Article

Later, same article:


I'm not trying to convince you personally of anything, since apparently no effort to present things in a reasonable manner makes a difference to you regarding any other perspective than your own. I'm not trying to prove anything negative about the red wigglers you're feeding your own fish or that anyone else feeds without any issues. In fact, let's assume that your worms are 100% pathogen free. However, that earthworms can carry pathogens is far from my personal, unfounded hypothesis, it's a subject of documented scientific research and it's something anyone can find out for themselves if they want to take the time. If you want to debate this, take it up with Cambridge University Press, Illinois Natural History Survey, or Lander University, which are among the references above, or the additional references cited by those articles, or other such authoritative or scholarly sources as study or report on the subject.

I'm not on some campaign against worms or against live foods, but some people might appreciate knowing that not all earthworms are pathogen free. Simple as that.

 

[petspoiler]

dogofwar, So annoying.
You ^just completely ignored his entire subsequent explanation: he was NEVER saying that risks referred to in those findings apply to worms cultured by people at home.
FYI, some people DO culture earthworms, not just red wigglers.
The only point was to dispel false beliefs that terrestrial worms CAN NOT carry pathogenic risks to fish. That is all.

Maybe it's not "OK" with you if people have some facts to weigh in making their own decisions, so you must go on & on until you get the Last Word.
doesn't make you the utmost valid thing on earth.

 

[dogofwar]

Did I disagree that it's possible for terrestrial worms to carry pathogens that could be transferred to aquatic organisms? Nope.

My point was that presenting information that way...and this isn't the first time that neut has done so on the topic of feeding red wigglers... is over-emphasizing the risks.

Matt

dogofwar, So annoying.
You ^just completely ignored his entire subsequent explanation: he was NEVER saying that risks referred to in those findings apply to worms cultured by people at home.
FYI, some people DO culture earthworms, not just red wigglers.
The only point was to dispel false beliefs that terrestrial worms CAN NOT carry pathogenic risks to fish. That is all.

Maybe it's not "OK" with you if people have some facts to weigh in making their own decisions, so you must go on & on until you get the Last Word.
doesn't make you the utmost valid thing on earth.

 

[neutrino]

You ^just completely ignored his entire subsequent explanation: he was NEVER saying that risks referred to in those findings apply to worms cultured by people at home.
FYI, some people DO culture earthworms, not just red wigglers.
The only point was to dispel false beliefs that terrestrial worms CAN NOT carry pathogenic risks to fish. That is all.

Exactly. Simple, huh?

@Matt-- I challenge you to go back and find any post of mine on any forum where I do anything other than say earthworms can carry pathogens-- a scientific fact. My only references to red wigglers have been after you bring them up, when I usually say that clean, cultured worms are another matter. From my first post in this thread and with increasing emphasis with each subsequent post I've tried to make clear that I would primarily be concerned with Quote: "randomly collected wild earthworms" and that cultured earthworms raised in a clean environment is another matter, subject to personal preference or opinion, including the general nutritional aspects of the worms.

Other than that, what I have said on occasion is that my personal preference is not to feed live foods, not a strict rule in my case, but my general policy. What I've also repeated a hundred times is that there are many ways of doing things in the hobby that can be equally valid and it often comes down to personal preference or opinion. My personal fishkeeping preferences, including food preferences are hardly going to create the shock waves in the hobby regarding culturing or feeding red wigglers that you seem to be predicting. I'm confident that people are more than capable of doing exactly what I've said in this thread: "come to your own conclusions".

About as much as I'd expect to come of this discussion on the part of other fishkeepers is something along the following lines:

• post by neutrino says to be cautious about live, wild earthworms, because they can harbor pathogens
• another poster says that's nothing more than his hypothesis
• in subsequent posts neutrino documents the basis on which he made the original statements, including a few authoritative references

...with some potential perfectly rational reactions similar to the following:

• Huh, didn't know that, maybe I should give a little more thought to where I get worms for my fish.
• Huh, never heard that before. Don't care because I've never had a problem feeding worms from my yard to my fish.
• I culture my own worms in clean conditions, so not worried about it.
• Maybe it's safer to go with freeze dried worms or worms as an ingredient in flakes or pellets.
• Maybe it's better to blanch them first, like the scientists did in one of the studies referenced above.
• I don't feed worms, so who cares?
• To quote you above: Lots and lots of creatures can carry pathogens and serve as hosts or transmitters for various parasites, including, of course, earthworms. The question is the level of risk. No food is 100% risk free.
• Worms can carry pathogens... So what? So can just about any living thing on planet earth... Boring subject, why did I read this thread?

I could go on. Point is I seriously doubt hordes of people are going to panic in the streets and run home to smash and burn the red wiggler colonies they're cultivating for fish feed just because some guy on a forum somewhere occasionally says, or posts references to establish, that there's no guarantee that the worms in your yard or in the woods near your house are always 100% safe to feed live to your expensive fish.

 

[E.C.]

this is a good discussion. But It just boils down to either of these answers,

"to feed or not to feed earthworms to fish"

well I feed earthworms to mine, and give it in moderation for omnivores...

 

[petspoiler]

........................................ I seriously doubt hordes of people are going to panic in the streets and run home to smash and burn the red wiggler colonies they're cultivating for fish feed just because some guy on a forum somewhere occasionally says, or posts references to establish, that there's no guarantee that the worms in your yard or in the woods near your house are always 100% safe to feed live to your expensive fish.

Oh darn!
The hordes aren't circling Matt's supply either?
;-)

 

[dogofwar]

Yawn...

So has anyone on this forum of tens of thousands of fishkeepers, many of whom I'll bet have fed their fish an earthworm or other terrestrial worm, ever experienced an issue with nematodes or other pathogens from feeding an earthworm, red wiggler or other terrestrial worm? Overfeeding or feeding to fish that shouldn't eat worms doesn't count....

Has anyone experienced disease or other issues from feeding feeder fish? Blackworms? Other aquatic creatures?

Should give a perspective on risk...

Matt

Exactly. Simple, huh?

@Matt-- I challenge you to go back and find any post of mine on any forum where I do anything other than say earthworms can carry pathogens-- a scientific fact. My only references to red wigglers have been after you bring them up, when I usually say that clean, cultured worms are another matter. From my first post in this thread and with increasing emphasis with each subsequent post I've tried to make clear that I would primarily be concerned with Quote: "randomly collected wild earthworms" and that cultured earthworms raised in a clean environment is another matter, subject to personal preference or opinion, including the general nutritional aspects of the worms.

Other than that, what I have said on occasion is that my personal preference is not to feed live foods, not a strict rule in my case, but my general policy. What I've also repeated a hundred times is that there are many ways of doing things in the hobby that can be equally valid and it often comes down to personal preference or opinion. My personal fishkeeping preferences, including food preferences are hardly going to create the shock waves in the hobby regarding culturing or feeding red wigglers that you seem to be predicting. I'm confident that people are more than capable of doing exactly what I've said in this thread: "come to your own conclusions".

About as much as I'd expect to come of this discussion on the part of other fishkeepers is something along the following lines:

• post by neutrino says to be cautious about live, wild earthworms, because they can harbor pathogens
• another poster says that's nothing more than his hypothesis
• in subsequent posts neutrino documents the basis on which he made the original statements, including a few authoritative references

...with some potential perfectly rational reactions similar to the following:

• Huh, didn't know that, maybe I should give a little more thought to where I get worms for my fish.
• Huh, never heard that before. Don't care because I've never had a problem feeding worms from my yard to my fish.
• I culture my own worms in clean conditions, so not worried about it.
• Maybe it's safer to go with freeze dried worms or worms as an ingredient in flakes or pellets.
• Maybe it's better to blanch them first, like the scientists did in one of the studies referenced above.
• I don't feed worms, so who cares?
• To quote you above: Lots and lots of creatures can carry pathogens and serve as hosts or transmitters for various parasites, including, of course, earthworms. The question is the level of risk. No food is 100% risk free.
• Worms can carry pathogens... So what? So can just about any living thing on planet earth... Boring subject, why did I read this thread?

I could go on. Point is I seriously doubt hordes of people are going to panic in the streets and run home to smash and burn the red wiggler colonies they're cultivating for fish feed just because some guy on a forum somewhere occasionally says, or posts references to establish, that there's no guarantee that the worms in your yard or in the woods near your house are always 100% safe to feed live to your expensive fish.

 

[petspoiler]

Matt, read Miguels' posts on how his much-longed-for Midas died after being fed one worm from outside.
Possible cause?
You'll no doubt say that doesn't count. but it would seem more fair to find out what he thought.

BTW, you are the only one laboriously beating on percentages. That was never the point.
The only way you can keep going on & on is to keep being contentious, for contentions' sake.

 

[neutrino]

So has anyone on this forum of tens of thousands of fishkeepers, many of whom I'll bet have fed their fish an earthworm or other terrestrial worm, ever experienced an issue with nematodes or other pathogens from feeding an earthworm, red wiggler or other terrestrial worm? Overfeeding or feeding to fish that shouldn't eat worms doesn't count....Matt

A reasonable response. If you'd said that in the first place, instead of trying to argue that earthworms being susceptible to pathogens is an 'unfounded hypothesis' or trying to spin it that somehow I'm obsessed with condemning red wigglers, we'd have been done with this a long time ago.

The fact is I have little interest or opinion specifically about red wigglers one way or the other. Tangent to discus keeping I've done some reading on them and know a number of people culture and feed them and consider the cultured worms safe when raised competently.

At this point my patience with the subject or continuing to debate with you is running out. So, I'll keep this simple, then bow out of the discussion. A lot of people feed wild, collected earthworms and have no problems. I get that. I've also seen them cause problems. The location and source of the worms would obviously be a factor as to their safety. We could debate that all day and it would be pointless, because unless we're a biologist or a vet with the expertise and laboratory necessary to correctly identify pathogens, most of the time we don't know as scientific fact exactly what made our fish sick. In some cases there's a visible pathogen we can see and diagnose; ich, for example. But much of the time the best we can do is make guesses based on symptoms. Not an opinion of my own invention, articles written by aquarium professionals have pointed this out.

However, on the general subject of collecting live bugs or worms to feed your fish I'm not peculiar or unique in saying there's a risk. To quote a fairly thorough article regarding oscar care:

Earthworms
Not much to elaborate on here. You know the risks….wild= bad etc. etc.

The article considers the risks to be obvious enough as to assume people are already aware them.


Further:

In the wild insects come in contact with pesticides, herbicides, fungicides and pollution. They can transfer these toxins to your fish and kill them. It is generally recommend that you use extreme caution when dealing with outdoor insects and the truth is, you shouldn’t use them at all.

You may or may not personally agree with this or may feel the risk is relatively low and I can respect that. I haven't tried to quantify the extent of the risk, haven't tried to quantify what percentage of that risk is due to pathogens vs. other possible toxins, nor have I told anyone how to view any risk; I've simply said it exists, but come to your own conclusions on anything further. But neither am I on the lunatic fringe with some 'unfounded hypothesis' because I might occasionally point out something from a science source or something that other aquarist sources recognize as a possible risk. I'm hardly the only one who says to use caution with wild caught worms or insects.

signing off................