is there another...

[Polypterus]

WTF is that supposed to mean? Go and live your pessimistic view while I live the truth. You know what you're talking about when it comes to gars and I thank you for all the help you've given me, but you don't know what you're talking about here. You show me where it says that you need a permit for those species in private aquaria. You still didn't answer my vendor question...I wonder why.

I'm not concerned with vendors on here or what they do...If it was AP I would very well be doing so and making sure things where very much kept legal and transparent.

You still have not told me how you are supposed to be able to legally import and keep Zebra mussels as they are clearly listed just as gars are and according to you can be kept in a private aquarium..

You see you are missing something very basic in your argument here. You are taking only a small portion of something and thinking it is universally applicable. It is not...Other portions of other related laws are contradicting this or elaborating it, In particular the definition of permissible Tropical and subtropical fish..You really do need to read the total law in all it's points that are applicable (including referenced chapters) and not just what you want to read.

Don't worry.. I'll likely have this cleared up by tomorrow afternoon as I did just send a message to someone that I know at the DOW to clarify this once and for all...

 

[city_of_evil6661]

well heres a thread that a list of every illegal fish in every state. if its already been posted then sorry. it doesnt matter if a fish is illegal, lfs are still gonna get them in and people are still gonna buy them for the simple fact that they want it. its not gonna stop them. its like murder, even though its illegal alot of people still do it.


http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36365gal

 

[pwmin]

Who is this person? You don't have to tell me the name, just their title and I will know who it is.

I've already talked to people since, like I already said, I do work for CDOW, which you seemingly laughed off in your earlier post.

I HAVE read everything. Why would I worry? I know the laws. And, again, where does it say that you need a permit for private aquaria?

What does "AP" stand for?

People accidentally import zebra mussels on boats, waders, etc. all the time so how could they enforce that? Who would put them in their aquarium, anyway? But, yes, as interpreted, just as it is for gars, you could keep them in your aquarium as long as you don't release them, which would be impossible not to if you actually clean your aquarium.

 

[Polypterus]

Who is this person? You don't have to tell me the name, just their title and I will know who it is.

I've already talked to people since, like I already said, I do work for CDOW, which you seemingly laughed off in your earlier post.

I HAVE read everything. Why would I worry? I know the laws. And, again, where does it say that you need a permit for private aquaria?

What does "AP" stand for?

People accidentally import zebra mussels on boats, waders, etc. all the time so how could they enforce that? Who would put them in their aquarium, anyway? But, yes, as interpreted, just as it is for gars, you could keep them in your aquarium as long as you don't release them, which would be impossible not to if you actually clean your aquarium.

Special Licensing the people who are in charge of this stuff and in the past have been clear in anwsering questions regarding this.

No offence but I have been working in Wildlife law and Wildlife law enforcement long enough to be aware of two things.

1. Just because someone works for the department does not mean they know the correct interpretation of the law and how it crosses with other laws and regulations. It is better to go to the source that has correct interpretation of said laws. Your status as an internet source (CDoW or not) is not in my opinion going to influence much as far as my judgment is concerned. When I hear back that you are correct I will happily admit that, until then I’m not at all convinced that your interpretation of Article VII, #012, subsection C is concurrent with other laws and regulations concerning Import and possession of listed species. Whether or not you work for CDoW is irrelevant in the context of this discussion. You have no name, no title and no locality written to your persona here. Pardon me if I sound critical but I do not regularly take anonymous information regarding Laws and regulations as solid fact. You are also the only source I have heard say this and this is in contradiction to known and validated sources of information regarding Colorado’s Possession laws of Aquatic animals on the Prohibited species list. It is also in direct contradiction of Chapter 11 Article II, # 1103 which outlines those species which have exemption from license requirements of which would only make the Tropical gar and Cuban exempt from permitting and license should Lepisosteids be legal for private possession..

2. Wildlife laws are complex and often multi faceted with one particular clause trumping another. There is an also often layered aspect to jurisdiction and control over enforcement. Often times Laws are not correctly worded or the terminology or context used is updated but some sections remain that are erroneous and irrelevant. This is why proper clarification of laws is often as complex as the laws themselves.

 

[beblondie]

"why would we have a vendor that explicitly carries forbidden species if it were illegal?''
Is it illegal to sell and have them shipped to a state where they are legal,if they were never on the property but shipped from an importer or wholesaler in a state where they are legal.? providing theres no federal law baning transportation of the species in question across state lines.

 

[pwmin]

Thanks for Chapter 11 Article II, # 1103...I didn't see that (not exactly helping my case ). It says the following:

(1103)(B):
EXEMPTIONS FROM LICENSE REQUIREMENTS:
B. Unregulated Wildlife - Prior to adoption of this regulation (#1103(B)), possession of the listed species was expressly prohibited by Section 33-6-109(4), C.R.S. The decision of the Wildlife Commission to authorize this possession as herein provided is based on the scientific evidence available to it at the time of adoption of the regulation. The Wildlife Commission retains the statutory authority and duty to amend these regulations and to impose requirements, restrictions, and/or prohibition on possession of any of the listed species if and when further evidence comes to the Wildlife Commission's attention which makes such amendments appropriate.
Except for the provisions of section #007 regarding importation, #008 regarding the prohibited species list, #009 regarding release of live wildlife, and section #1114 regarding the addition of species to the unregulated wildlife list, the wildlife enumerated in this list are otherwise exempted from the requirements of Wildlife Commission regulations.
Unregulated wildlife may be imported, sold, bartered, traded, transferred, possessed, propagated and transported in Colorado provided that all importation, disease requirements and any other state, local or federal requirements are met. Statutory restrictions still apply.
All marine animals (vertebrates and invertebrates) except for anadromous and catadromous species.

Fishes:
All tropical and subtropical fishes
Common goldfish (Carassius auratus)
Koi

1100- Definitions
"D. "Tropical" – means those regions lying between The Tropic of Cancer at 23.5 degrees north latitude and the Tropic of Capricorn at 23.5 degrees south latitude. In this chapter this reference is for those species of wildlife that are resident breeders of this region.
E. "Subtropical" – means those regions adjacent to the tropics, within the zone from 23.5 degrees north latitude to 26.0 degrees north latitude and from 23.5 degrees south latitude to 26.0 degrees south latitude. This definition applies to those regions that lay near the tropical zone and contain wildlife that are resident breeders of this region."

I won't copy and paste 007, 008, 009 (only pertain to terrestrial wildlife) or 1114 ("Unregulated Wildlife Listing or Delisting")

I see all tropical and subtropical species, but I dont' see the pointing out of the 2 gars you mentioned. Is this because the other species aren't found above 26 degrees N latitude?

I don't care if you believe me or not, but I'm not going to give out personal information like that on a private forum.

 

[pwmin]

Don't you just love contradictory laws? There was no reference to special permits under "use in private aquaria", so why would anyone think differently?

I have no idea why they list Piranhas and other fish if they are exempt or snakeheads which are obviously illegal.

 

[city_of_evil6661]

this thread has gone to hell. wait ....... do you even want a fish that is illegal??

 

[pwmin]

this thread has gone to hell. wait ....... do you even want a fish that is illegal??

the original question was easy to answer and was answered, so it doesn't really matter.

no, I don't want an illegal fish.



Another thing I don't get is why anyone would suspect any further when they read that those species are legal if kept in private aquaria. It is Chapter 00 when the contradictory chapter is 11. Why would anyone even think they would need a permit after that and read Chapter 11?

On top of that, it doesn't seem like you can even get any type of permit for small private aquaria. A couple aquariums in your house would seemingly not qualify as a wildlife sanctuary or wildlife park.

 

[Polypterus]

I see all tropical and subtropical species, but I dont' see the pointing out of the 2 gars you mentioned. Is this because the other species aren't found above 26 degrees N latitude?

I don't care if you believe me or not, but I'm not going to give out personal information like that on a private forum.

No other gars are found above 23.5 north.. (except for exotic introductions) Atractosteus Tropicus and A. tristoechus do fall under the the Tropic of Cancer and are thus qualified as Sub tropical fish..

And I'm not going to ask you to give out personal information. I would not do so and would not expect you to either. But as I said.. under said conditions I'm not going to exactly take all you say at face value when there is clearly a contradiction.. As stated also if I'm wrong I will very much acknowledge this.. I am however not convinced by looking at the various laws that this is indeed the case.

Don't you just love contradictory laws? There was no reference to special permits under "use in private aquaria", so why would anyone think differently?

I have no idea why they list Piranhas and other fish if they are exempt or snakeheads which are obviously illegal.

This is what I was saying above under point 2 and also why I keep saying you need you look at more than just that one sentence...Wildlife laws tend to be very complex and at times downright illogical. the fact is though which ever one came first or has the Highest level of control is the one that goes (Level of jurisdiction often goes Federal, Local, Township, county, state...)

I'm also ignoring this whole Mike thing as I have no idea what permits and licenses he is using to import and then sell these fish that are listed. It is very possible to import these fish for sale as a licensed business but to not legally sell them locally.. This has nothing to do specifically with legal possession. Rules and regulations in this case are different and are not relevant to Private possession. It is Private possession we are most concerned with here.