I've Seen The Light- UGF's SUCK

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Vspec, I want to say I appreciate the contributions you are making to this thread.
The verbose manner of your replies takes a little getting used to, but, I am OK with it.[QUOTE='vspec';446263;44626399]If you pumping o2 rich water down into your bed, its safe to assume your predominately promoting aerobic only. Where as, if it was just a medium depth bed, with sugar fine sand, then over a period of time, your bed would balance itself and you would have both capabilities. It also doesn't get any cheaper, or easier to maintain. [/QUOTE]I don't understand. In what fashion will this disparity manifest itself ? How do I recognize that this is occurring ?



Sorry for any confusion, Im not really trying to make a point bud, literally just talking from the edges and somewhat careful not ruffle many feathers these days. And definitely dont consider myself intelligent by any stretch.
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I'm OK with this, I have ruffled many feathers on this forum. Intelligence is a subjective term.

If its direct answers you seek, give me all the known variables coupled with what your trying to achieve, & i'll cough up a direct road map. If you can handle the fact Im heavily schooled in marine, and as such apply an awful lot of what i call simple approaches regardless of what environment i deploy, then we're on the same page.
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Fair enough.

Im not ashamed in any way by making a clear and distinct choice of maximising environment over intervention by default.
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Nor should you be.

Aquatica is an instinctual art and a science all rolled into one. I set it up properly then leave it. The hippy in me say's nature handles most of the rest. I dont down play water changes or what you call filter maintenance, however you've got to ask the question as to specificly why your doing it, then ask the follow on question as to how the environment can work more efficiently for you, instead of you having to intervene every second day. You see what im saying??
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Yes and no. I understand the principal of your concept of how it should be. What I don't get is how this translates. Do you have any build threads ? Could you give a graphical example of the concept in action ?

I can preach the KISS principle now, however it's born from a sh^t load of research, trial & error, money spent of testing gear & a deep interest to understand whats ultimately important to me. - The environment itself.
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I am all over this. Share the wealth.

Here is my example setup:
240 gallon 8x2x2
heavily stocked with African Cichlid's
My unchlorinated well water is perfect (high Ph, High hardness).
I don't want to spend a ton of money.
I don't want to do gravel vacs.
I want to use the minimum amount of water to service the setup.
I want to keep Nitrates below 20 ppm.
I want a mechanical filtration setup that is easy, cheap and uncomplicated.

What should I do ?
 
i'll try to keep my responses less odd-ball-ish to limit the confusions



CA , it your using a reverse flow UG type system, your pumping water that is oxygenated from the water column & directing it into the bed in an attempt to keep it clean. ie, lifting in suspension, so its picked up by some other filtering. Is this an accurate description?

If thats the case, (dependant on flow rates, dead spots, effectiveness, ect ect) you will have an aerobic bias sand or gravel bed. This is fine, if you want to do that, then im happy your taking the diy & doing something you enjoy.
Just take into account (bacterially speaking) you will not have an anaerobic zone to process nitrate. So the result (unless you have nitrate reduction via other means) is that it will rise in relation to your other processing potentials. So the result = you find another solution to handle this, or you constantly perform water changes in some futile attempts to constantly stem a rise of testable nitrate results. Does this make sense?



Now, personal build threads are coming, so if you guys are after a see to believe comparison, then you wont get it. As i mentioned i dont have much running at this point as i had to take a financial break. However my projects are awaking pretty soon, & ive got a schedule that's pencilled in.
You will see a natural quality that rivals japes tanks, & a mind set that is reflective of design, functionality & environmental considerations. This is all i can say on my plans for the future, & if your interested when the time arrives, then im happy to post my journey.


Now to your example..


Here is my example setup:
240 gallon 8x2x2
heavily stocked with African Cichlid's
My unchlorinated well water is perfect (high Ph, High hardness).
I don't want to spend a ton of money.
I don't want to do gravel vacs.
I want to use the minimum amount of water to service the setup.
I want to keep Nitrates below 20 ppm.
I want a mechanical filtration setup that is easy, cheap and uncomplicated.

What should I do ?
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All responses are my initial chain of thought.

Species investigation:

Exact African species, exacting parameters, habitats, compatibilities & known bad habits (plant lifting, rock movers ect ect) This will influence environmental cues that have to be assessed &/or modified.

Input investigation:

well water parameters & associated concerns. how is it already buffered, what contributes to it.
water may be in the range from buffering stand point, however what's the TDS, negative future impacts. Clashes with my projected substrate, rocks ect ect will it compound the parameters, do i have enough acidic buffering, do i need to get a full elemental readout to see unknowns ect.

Core environment vs animal sections

Sumping is my highest concern, space available, possible remote applications due to limitations. Filtering applications in the sump. design limitations, is having fine sand & chosen scaping going to be detrimental, larger fish displace sand whilst swimming, mabuna fish type pit escalations, rocks or plants uprooted, given species requirements for things like flow & scape how is this impacted ect ect,


Im working, so you dont have my full attentions, however these are questions that i would initially be asking myself in order to design an environment for myself using your example.
Sumping a must - filtration mainly biological, mechanical handled by sump, decent sand beds, quality water introduction, proactive focus on buffering, mineral & electrolyte parameter monitoring ect. Bring everything into focus & designing your system as a complete picture that lines up logically so you can make the correct choices of application.

anyways, quick food for thought
 
Sumping a must - filtration mainly biological, mechanical handled by sump, decent sand beds, quality water introduction, proactive focus on buffering, mineral & electrolyte parameter monitoring ect. Bring everything into focus & designing your system as a complete picture that lines up logically so you can make the correct choices of application.

Sounds like setting up and maintaining a reef tank.
Lot of attention to water details to keep the polyps viable.

Still not seeing the "nuts-n-bolts" of how your tanks were set up.

When going over your posts, I keep getting a picture of an acolyte sitting at the masters feet, asking ..
"when will I know?"
Getting whacked by a bamboo staff and hearing the master say..
"you will know when you know":wall:
 
[QUOTE='vspec';446460;44646099]i'll try to keep my responses less odd-ball-ish to limit the confusions[/QUOTE] :ROFL:



CA , it your using a reverse flow UG type system, your pumping water that is oxygenated from the water column & directing it into the bed in an attempt to keep it clean. ie, lifting in suspension, so its picked up by some other filtering. Is this an accurate description?
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yes

If thats the case, (dependant on flow rates, dead spots, effectiveness, ect ect) you will have an aerobic bias sand or gravel bed. This is fine, if you want to do that, then im happy your taking the diy & doing something you enjoy.
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Condescending crap
Just take into account (bacterially speaking) you will not have an anaerobic zone to process nitrate. So the result (unless you have nitrate reduction via other means) is that it will rise in relation to your other processing potentials. So the result = you find another solution to handle this, or you constantly perform water changes in some futile attempts to constantly stem a rise of testable nitrate results. Does this make sense?
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It would if indeed if nitrates were to rise as you suggest.
Look bud, for the sake of discussion lets forget how I am setup and just concentrate on the rate of nitrate buildup I am currently experiencing.
I currently do a 30-40% water change every 12-14 days. This reduces my Nitrate level from 20-25 ppm down to 10ppm or slightly less. To my knowledge this is on par with or better than any other setups written about on this forum. I'm not bragging, I'm being honest. If I am mistaken. School Me. Is this not acceptable performance regardless of filtration choice ?
Are you saying that your method results in no nitrate buildup ?



Now, personal build threads are coming, so if you guys are after a see to believe comparison, then you wont get it. As i mentioned i dont have much running at this point as i had to take a financial break. However my projects are awaking pretty soon, & ive got a schedule that's pencilled in.
You will see a natural quality that rivals japes tanks, & a mind set that is reflective of design, functionality & environmental considerations. This is all i can say on my plans for the future, & if your interested when the time arrives, then im happy to post my journey.
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Talk is cheap friend. I look forward to your future posts:popcorn:


Now to your example..

All responses are my initial chain of thought.

Species investigation:

Exact African species, exacting parameters, habitats, compatibilities & known bad habits (plant lifting, rock movers ect ect) This will influence environmental cues that have to be assessed &/or modified.

Input investigation:

well water parameters & associated concerns. how is it already buffered, what contributes to it.
water may be in the range from buffering stand point, however what's the TDS, negative future impacts. Clashes with my projected substrate, rocks ect ect will it compound the parameters, do i have enough acidic buffering, do i need to get a full elemental readout to see unknowns ect.

Core environment vs animal sections

Sumping is my highest concern, space available, possible remote applications due to limitations. Filtering applications in the sump. design limitations, is having fine sand & chosen scaping going to be detrimental, larger fish displace sand whilst swimming, mabuna fish type pit escalations, rocks or plants uprooted, given species requirements for things like flow & scape how is this impacted ect ect,

Im working, so you dont have my full attentions, however these are questions that i would initially be asking myself in order to design an environment for myself using your example.
Sumping a must - filtration mainly biological, mechanical handled by sump, decent sand beds, quality water introduction, proactive focus on buffering, mineral & electrolyte parameter monitoring ect. Bring everything into focus & designing your system as a complete picture that lines up logically so you can make the correct choices of application.
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With all due respect Vspec, that is a whole lotta nuthin'.
The only substantive point you attempt to make is that a sump is a must.
I'll have to leave it at that as I am also at work.
$ .02
 
It's Ok FG, Vspec is a big boy. I'm sure he is capable of metabolizing criticism without resorting to anger.
He is obviously of average or better intelligence and will have no issue with my honest and impersonal responses.
At some point my hope is he will have enough time to give a more direct answer(s).

Keep in mind this thread offers an oportunity to examine the predjudice(s) toward anything remotely resembling a UGF/RUGF/UGJ. Anyone contrbuting to this thread should keep that in mind. I'm not saying it is better than a sump, canister, PPF, Sand filter or whatever. I offer it as an alternative/enhancement to help keep your gravel bed cleaner without having to gravel vac weekly. It happens to work well as a stand alone system also. I have yet to hear a contribution from anyone telling me what the shortfall is. Vspec makes the point that it is predominantly aerobic and therefore will not process nitrate. I accept that. What is acceptable performance from any system ? How fast does nitrate build up in your system ? It's a fair question I pose to everyone.
Lunch hour is over, gotta go. :)
 
I can agree with you guys on the reduced ability to reduce nitrates. The reasoning seems logical to me.
As far as me personally applying an UGJ system, It would be mainly for aiding the mechanical removal of detrius, as I have stated before. Therefore, whatever biological benefit I will get out of it is strictly a bonus!
To me it is about making the necessary maintenance routine as efficient as possible and I absolutely loath vacuming gravell and water changes are a close second on my list. Therefore I am looking into using a similar UGJ setup like yours with a sump of my own design. I want to incorporate a drip system to decrease the frequency of needing to do water changes and at the same time I will make them as easy as possible to perform when needed.
 
yeah its all good. Its just chat back & forth anyways. besides, its refreshing when people tell it how it is.

I am however alittle stunned you believe my post relating to your example was a whole lotta nothing. Each to their own, however they are questions or thoughts that beg answering in order to proceed to the next step in my view. As i said, i prep my environment, have everything i need before hand, benchmark the system, then leave it! Only minor tweaks there after if needed.

Even with considerable load, i very rarely experience any swings, & looking at nitrate as the chosen topic, on my last tank we set up, the last time i saw nitrate was during the initial cycle.

I wish you luck bud.
 
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