Jaguar catfish aka Liosomadoras oncinus visible!

[thebiggerthebetter]

My jaguar curse lives on... I've just lost both new jaguars Not sure at all what happened. When I am carefully examining these recent photos, I can see that they show some signs of not being all that well - excessive slime on the head (which I thought was just from rubbing on the rocks when they hide and keep re-positioning), flat tummy, bumpy skin / tissue, etc.

We've been overrun with spiders and I've very carefully and gradually sprayed some insecticide in the fish house over more than a month, namely Bengal roach killer that fumigates and kills almost all insects and arachnids and stays effective on surfaces for many months. I wonder if jags are particularly sensitive to it.

I know it is toxic to fish.

Having sprayed a little I waited for 7-10 days to make sure no fish looks like it is adversely affected. Then repeated again and again. I am sure I saw the jaguars come out and feed within this period also, so it never crossed my mind that they might be in danger.

However, I can't think of anything else other than the insecticide and also new fish that was introduced into the system of a 1000 gal sump and six 240 gal tanks, one of which was housing the jaguars.

They lost either coloration or skin on their snouts - the snouts turned all white over 1-2 days, the eyes went totally cloudy. No other prominent external manifestations.

Other fish in that tank system and in the whole fish house have appeared ok although now I am worried about it. Will have to up my vigilance.

 

[Fish Tank Travis]

My jaguar curse lives on... I've just lost both new jaguars Not sure at all what happened. When I am carefully examining these recent photos, I can see that they show some signs of not being all that well - excessive slime on the head (which I thought was just from rubbing on the rocks when they hide and keep re-positioning), flat tummy, bumpy skin / tissue, etc.

We've been overrun with spiders and I've very carefully and gradually sprayed some insecticide in the fish house over more than a month, namely Bengal roach killer that fumigates and kills almost all insects and arachnids and stays effective on surfaces for many months. I wonder if jags are particularly sensitive to it.

I know it is toxic to fish.

Having sprayed a little I waited for 7-10 days to make sure no fish looks like it is adversely affected. Then repeated again and again. I am sure I saw the jaguars come out and feed within this period also, so it never crossed my mind that they might be in danger.

However, I can't think of anything else other than the insecticide and also new fish that was introduced into the system of a 1000 gal sump and six 240 gal tanks, one of which was housing the jaguars.

They lost either coloration or skin on their snouts - the snouts turned all white over 1-2 days, the eyes went totally cloudy. No other prominent external manifestations.

Other fish in that tank system and in the whole fish house have appeared ok although now I am worried about it. Will have to up my vigilance.

Very sorry to hear about your loss. Is it possible that insects that came in contact with the pesticide got into the tank somehow, and were eaten by the jaguar catfish? It seems unlikely that insects would only find their way into one tank but it's also odd that they both died at the same time with the same symptoms.

 

[moe214]

Sorry to hear.. if that is all you can think of that may have caused it, I'd say your thought is a possibility, maybe a small trace got into the tank, something that jags may be more effected by than others. It is fairly known jags can be sensitive AFAIK. So I agree tho your thoughts. The above doesn't seem likely as that would be very coincidental that they both eat a bug infected with the toxin. If you can find the problem and fix it, Jeff rapps has some nice sized jags fs still I believe. Again sorry to hear, seems like they just started to come out their shell.

 

[koltsixx]

My jaguar curse lives on... I've just lost both new jaguars Not sure at all what happened. When I am carefully examining these recent photos, I can see that they show some signs of not being all that well - excessive slime on the head (which I thought was just from rubbing on the rocks when they hide and keep re-positioning), flat tummy, bumpy skin / tissue, etc.

We've been overrun with spiders and I've very carefully and gradually sprayed some insecticide in the fish house over more than a month, namely Bengal roach killer that fumigates and kills almost all insects and arachnids and stays effective on surfaces for many months. I wonder if jags are particularly sensitive to it.

I know it is toxic to fish.

Having sprayed a little I waited for 7-10 days to make sure no fish looks like it is adversely affected. Then repeated again and again. I am sure I saw the jaguars come out and feed within this period also, so it never crossed my mind that they might be in danger.

However, I can't think of anything else other than the insecticide and also new fish that was introduced into the system of a 1000 gal sump and six 240 gal tanks, one of which was housing the jaguars.

They lost either coloration or skin on their snouts - the snouts turned all white over 1-2 days, the eyes went totally cloudy. No other prominent external manifestations.

Other fish in that tank system and in the whole fish house have appeared ok although now I am worried about it. Will have to up my vigilance.

I'm really sorry to hear about your loss Viktor. Can I ask has there been any temperature fluctuations? Specifically an increase? And how long have you had them? I only ask because I've heard that depending on the locale they've been sourced from they can be sensitive to warm temp fluctuations preferring water closer to 74. I've also hear that those that do prefer the slightly cooler temp also tend to be overly sensitive and given to sudden death with no known cause.

Then again I do believe in being somewhat cursed when it comes to a species. I myself feel that I'm cursed when it comes to a species or two. Those one or two species that always seem to perish for no foreseeable reason despite their tankmates some of which purported to be more fragile doing well and water parameters being as near optimal as possible. For me I usually get stubborn and repeatedly try until I can't take it anymore and wind up giving up for awhile. If you haven't hit that wall yet Moe's suggestion about picking up Jeffs Oncinus that he has up for sale is a good one. Jeff has had them for awhile now, so they should be stable stable and worth chancing IMO.

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

Very sorry to hear about your loss. Is it possible that insects that came in contact with the pesticide got into the tank somehow, and were eaten by the jaguar catfish? It seems unlikely that insects would only find their way into one tank but it's also odd that they both died at the same time with the same symptoms.

No, it wasn't by that route. It didn't need to be because the 1000 gal, 50'x2'x1.5' sump is semi-open to the ambient. The rubber-liner sump is embedded within the tank stand made of wood and I need to keep it a bit open and ventilated to ward off mold, etc. Tiny amount of the insecticide fumes surely made it in there over time. I was just hoping it'd be negligible but might have been proven wrong.

Sorry to hear.. if that is all you can think of that may have caused it, I'd say your thought is a possibility, maybe a small trace got into the tank, something that jags may be more effected by than others. It is fairly known jags can be sensitive AFAIK. So I agree tho your thoughts. The above doesn't seem likely as that would be very coincidental that they both eat a bug infected with the toxin. If you can find the problem and fix it, Jeff rapps has some nice sized jags fs still I believe. Again sorry to hear, seems like they just started to come out their shell.

Thanks. Can you describe or point me toward any written up cases of jaguar sensitivity? Yea, I believe they had been going strong and well before this happened. Oh well. At least I got a chance to somehow document them right on the brink... As for Rapps jaguars, I think I'll wait until I get my business license and buy a dozen or two from Segrest at wholesale price. Just a thought at the moment.

I'm really sorry to hear about your loss Viktor. Can I ask has there been any temperature fluctuations? Specifically an increase? And how long have you had them? I only ask because I've heard that depending on the locale they've been sourced from they can be sensitive to warm temp fluctuations preferring water closer to 74. I've also hear that those that do prefer the slightly cooler temp also tend to be overly sensitive and given to sudden death with no known cause.

Then again I do believe in being somewhat cursed when it comes to a species. I myself feel that I'm cursed when it comes to a species or two. Those one or two species that always seem to perish for no foreseeable reason despite their tankmates some of which purported to be more fragile doing well and water parameters being as near optimal as possible. For me I usually get stubborn and repeatedly try until I can't take it anymore and wind up giving up for awhile. If you haven't hit that wall yet Moe's suggestion about picking up Jeffs Oncinus that he has up for sale is a good one. Jeff has had them for awhile now, so they should be stable stable and worth chancing IMO.

Hey Kolt, thanks. I've got them 7 months ago from Rapps. No sudden temp changes. Thanks for the heads-up on the varieties, I didn't know that. Maybe you could too fetch a link or two where this info might be described (don't need to turn it into a long and painful searching session, same goes for Moe ). Will pay attention to this aspect when I read about these fish.

Nah, I used the word curse more in a sense that describes the situation without many words than for its literal meaning. The jag case is different as there is at least a couple of plausible explanations I have. Now, why I can't keep firewood catfish and black lancers, I've no clue yet. Still there must be a reason and it has nothing to do with magic but everything to do with biology

I know why I couldn't keep siberian sturgeon, hi fin Chinese shark, and Siniperca sherzei - my water high temps are outside of what they can bear.

 

[koltsixx]

Hey Kolt, thanks. I've got them 7 months ago from Rapps. No sudden temp changes. Thanks for the heads-up on the varieties, I didn't know that. Maybe you could too fetch a link or two where this info might be described (don't need to turn it into a long and painful searching session, same goes for Moe ). Will pay attention to this aspect when I read about these fish.

Nah, I used the word curse more in a sense that describes the situation without many words than for its literal meaning. The jag case is different as there is at least a couple of plausible explanations I have. Now, why I can't keep firewood catfish and black lancers, I've no clue yet. Still there must be a reason and it has nothing to do with magic but everything to do with biology

I know why I couldn't keep siberian sturgeon, hi fin Chinese shark, and Siniperca sherzei - my water high temps are outside of what they can bear.

The 74 degree temp was actually referenced in an article on Planetcatfish, in the CotM. The sensitivity and sudden death syndrome are just things I've gleaned so I don't have any links. But I'm pretty sure Planetcatfish also mentioned something about it being beneficial to knowing the collection locale and water parameters because they can be overly sensitive to a water parameter change to the point they might perish.

Between what I've gleaned and my own personal experiences I'm just postulating that perhaps certain Oncinus depending on collection point maybe more sensitive then others. My opinion is based on what seems like conflicting reports about Oncinus. Some saying they're bullet proof while others have claimed they're very fragile. For myself they've been every bit as resilient as my Trachys. I just always wind up selling them because they're consistently the shyest fish I keep and it irks me that such beauty remains hidden in my tank.

Okay so you're not Oncinus cursed but are Fire and Lancer cursed. lol As for plausible explanations I'm not so sure. At least with your keeping Siniperca Scherzeri. Scherzeri. While it's true they can tolerate extreme cold they will not feed under 15℃ and according to 2016, The Korean Society of Fisheries and Aquatic Science Scherzeri it was found that a suitable water temperature range for optimal growth and feed efficiency of juvenile mandarin fish is 26-29℃ under their experimental conditions. And I myself have always kept them successfully in water 80°F and up especially my most recent Platinum Scherzeri. Which are growing like weeds. I have a feeling that certain areas do have components to the parameters that no one is aware of and it's just one of those secrets waiting to be unlocked that makes such things as sudden death in some fish and breeding fish such as Dats in captivity impossible.

 

[moe214]

No, it wasn't by that route. It didn't need to be because the 1000 gal, 50'x2'x1.5' sump is semi-open to the ambient. The rubber-liner sump is embedded within the tank stand made of wood and I need to keep it a bit open and ventilated to ward off mold, etc. Tiny amount of the insecticide fumes surely made it in there over time. I was just hoping it'd be negligible but might have been proven wrong.



Thanks. Can you describe or point me toward any written up cases of jaguar sensitivity? Yea, I believe they had been going strong and well before this happened. Oh well. At least I got a chance to somehow document them right on the brink... As for Rapps jaguars, I think I'll wait until I get my business license and buy a dozen or two from Segrest at wholesale price. Just a thought at the moment.



Hey Kolt, thanks. I've got them 7 months ago from Rapps. No sudden temp changes. Thanks for the heads-up on the varieties, I didn't know that. Maybe you could too fetch a link or two where this info might be described (don't need to turn it into a long and painful searching session, same goes for Moe ). Will pay attention to this aspect when I read about these fish.

Nah, I used the word curse more in a sense that describes the situation without many words than for its literal meaning. The jag case is different as there is at least a couple of plausible explanations I have. Now, why I can't keep firewood catfish and black lancers, I've no clue yet. Still there must be a reason and it has nothing to do with magic but everything to do with biology

I know why I couldn't keep siberian sturgeon, hi fin Chinese shark, and Siniperca sherzei - my water high temps are outside of what they can bear.

It is something that has been said in many threads I've read IIRC. I will try search a few, not sure if there's much proof behind it but I got you . And that sounds fair. I must agree with kolt, my current jag hasn't had any problems and during wc, the temp can change slightly in a short amount of time since it's only a 30 gallon,

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

Thank you, guys.

KS: The 74 degree temp was actually referenced in an article on Planetcatfish, in the CotM.
TBTB: I see. I'll check. PCF can sometimes cite strange data, coming from FishBase, etc. Some may be oversights, typos. I remember the case of a temp range for Oxydoras niger of 21-23 C.

KS: The sensitivity and sudden death syndrome are just things I've gleaned so I don't have any links.
TBTB: Fair enough.

KS: But I'm pretty sure Planetcatfish also mentioned something about it being beneficial to knowing the collection locale and water parameters because they can be overly sensitive to a water parameter change to the point they might perish.
TBTB: In an ideal, yes. In practice, it is probably more impossible to know than not, unless you yourself are doing the collection. You will be lucky to know the river or the province, or the country. Forget water parameters. They can be found online for a river on average but that's another big step away from certainty.

KS: Between what I've gleaned and my own personal experiences I'm just postulating that perhaps certain Oncinus depending on collection point maybe more sensitive then others. My opinion is based on what seems like conflicting reports about Oncinus. Some saying they're bullet proof while others have claimed they're very fragile. For myself they've been every bit as resilient as my Trachys. I just always wind up selling them because they're consistently the shyest fish I keep and it irks me that such beauty remains hidden in my tank.
TBTB: Is that weeding out the examples of "sensitive" jaguars that might be due to something entirely different than their alleged sensitivity? That'd be hard to weed out unless you know a keeper is a generally careless or inexperienced keeper. IME, they are not sensitive, just average. Every time I lost them (which is probably ~4-5 times in Rochester, NY and now 2 times, not 2 fish, in Naples, FL) it was due to my error, I believe.

KS: ... it was found that a suitable water temperature range for optimal growth and feed efficiency of juvenile mandarin fish is 26-29℃ under their experimental conditions. And I myself have always kept them successfully in water 80°F and up especially my most recent Platinum Scherzeri. Which are growing like weeds.
TBTB: Nice. When I lost my mandarin perch, my water daily highs were 85-90 F, I am getting foggy, maybe even 88-92 F.

KS: I have a feeling that certain areas do have components to the parameters that no one is aware of and it's just one of those secrets waiting to be unlocked that makes such things as sudden death in some fish and breeding fish such as Dats in captivity impossible.
TBTB: Looks good on paper, again. In reality, short of controlled lab experiment, we will never know much about it or know with good measure of surety, I believe. But somethings we do know, like presence of hormones of one breeding fish inducing another to do the same.

 

[koltsixx]

I see. I'll check. PCF can sometimes cite strange data, coming from FishBase, etc. Some may be oversights, typos. I remember the case of a temp range for Oxydoras niger of 21-23 C.

An oversight is possible as are typos but since it was a personal account instead of just the profile I was hoping it was more accurate.

TBTB: In an ideal, yes. In practice, it is probably more impossible to know than not, unless you yourself are doing the collection. You will be lucky to know the river or the province, or the country. Forget water parameters. They can be found online for a river on average but that's another big step away from certainty.

Lol, true it's not an easy or even often times possible thing to do, I was just using it as an example of PCF referencing Oncinus sensitivity.

Is that weeding out the examples of "sensitive" jaguars that might be due to something entirely different than their alleged sensitivity? That'd be hard to weed out unless you know a keeper is a generally careless or inexperienced keeper. IME, they are not sensitive, just average. Every time I lost them (which is probably ~4-5 times in Rochester, NY and now 2 times, not 2 fish, in Naples, FL) it was due to my error, I believe.

Not all the examples but some of what I was going on was personal accounts of fishkeepers I know and who I feel are competent fishkeepers. Some people don't share publicly but will share via pm when they've had issues and lost a lot of fish. I'm a prime example. I often share the loss of an individual but some of the species where I lost many of them and with no foreseeable reason I tend to keep to myself or share via pm. The frustration just being too much for me to want to publicly remind myself of.

TBTB: Nice. When I lost my mandarin perch, my water daily highs were 85-90 F, I am getting foggy, maybe even 88-92 F.

Wow that is high. I keep my Scherzeri at around 82-84°F but the experiment said optimal conditions for optimal growth and feed efficiency was 78.8-84.2°F. One would think that logically if those temperatures are optimal that 1-6 degrees difference wouldn't necessarily be fatal. Though I will concede 90 and above would be pushing it.

Can I ask why do you keep them so hot? Even heated pools are usually around 82-84°F so even if you wanted to comfortably swim with your fish that would be kind of high. lol

Looks good on paper, again. In reality, short of controlled lab experiment, we will never know much about it or know with good measure of surety, I believe. But somethings we do know, like presence of hormones of one breeding fish inducing another to do the same.

Of course but since the hobby advances everyday, IMO new discoveries could always be just around the corner. Even now there are aspects of water quality not taken into account by many hobbyists such a Redox and it's effects on algae, fish growth and longevity. So the info may even be out there already just not well known in the community.

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

Good and useful to know, Josh. Thanks much.

KS: ... Not all the examples but some of what I was going on was personal accounts of fishkeepers I know and who I feel are competent fishkeepers. Some people don't share publicly but will share via pm when they've had issues and lost a lot of fish. I'm a prime example. I often share the loss of an individual but some of the species where I lost many of them and with no foreseeable reason I tend to keep to myself or share via pm. The frustration just being too much for me to want to publicly remind myself of.

TBTB: You and I and all who's been keeping fish long enough know this comes with territory. Once in a while the s hits the f, not a question of if but when... and we must accept it to continue in the hobby. Publicly or not, that's a personal choice. Even if I don't see how I could possibly learn from exposing my losses, I believe that one way or another I'll learn something from somebody sooner or later, and/or they will learn from what has happened to me.

KS: ... Can I ask why do you keep them so hot? Even heated pools are usually around 82-84°F so even if you wanted to comfortably swim with your fish that would be kind of high. lol

TBTB: I don't plan to swim with them But anyhow, I neither heat nor cool. That's the temps that establish naturally inside my fish house attrium / shade house-greenhouse hybrid structure. I did install some AC capacity last summer, about 7 ton (mostly for the visitor comfort) which should bring down the water temp highs by a few, maybe even up to 5 degrees. I need another 5-ton AC unit to lower it father.

When the outside temp is say 95 F (reported in shade of course), without the AC, it's ~90 F inside the fish house, with AC running ~85 F and much dryer of course.