Just saw "an incovenient truth"

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hamato_yoshii;721965; said:
Guys remember too that everyone is bashing Repair and Benefica540 for looking at Gore and not the "facts", but Repair made a great point at the start of this thread. He said he was old enought o remember the wave of "Ice Age" hype that came out 40-50 years ago. The reason why this is important is the scientists that are giving these "facts" for global warming, and our role in it, were the very same scientists, warning us of an impending ice age as a result of global cooling. These "facts" aren't as cut and dry as it may seem. And it certainly does matter if you can destroy the credibility of those pushing this agenda, because when you do that, you expose their motives, and that's what politics is all about. I'm not gonna be that guy that acts like Al Gore is doing something different and more sinister than other politicians (mostly liberals! J/K!:grinno: ), I'm just not going to sit back and let these guys spoon feed me my views on enviromental science with a completly one sided view of things.

God told President Bush that global is not warming, with that, President Bush has firmly rejected all the global warming bs.

Isn't it great that God is a conservative? Arent you glad that our president gets the facts from the Lord?
 
I just read Hamato's post and he reminded me of something I learned in Ecology class...

With global warming COMES global cooling as well. I think it was also mentioned in this movie - something about the gulf stream stopping, once a load of fresh water is dumped into it and stops the natural flow of water - something like that would cause everything to... freeze. So yes, we are looking at two catastrophes here. And I just read a very disconerting articie about Antarctica breaking up as we speak, and melting at a very high rate, not to mention all those under-ice lakes that found there.
I personally thought that 40,50 years on Gore's part, was pretty conservative. Each summer is hotter than the last, and each winter is more weird than the last.
 
I would qoute facts but you would have to accept my facts the way I have to accept your facts and since that won't happen I won't waste my time doing it.

And it was 30+ years ago.

As for it getting colder it's funny that when the global warming folks saw some evidence that the world might be cooling they changed their models...... now how do you have a conversation with people that change their facts to fit the results.

And thats all I have to say about that.
 
Just to point out a few things I learned (hence I siad I learned from school and text book so that doesnt mean I totally agree -just throwing it out there). In my Environmental and Oceanography classes I learned a few things about global warming - first one being that global warming is a natural process the earth heats up, it cools down its been going on for millions+ years, it was said that evidence of this has been found, except humans havent been around that long to experience it so what do we know? As for global warming its self it has been noticable that weather and climates are chaning due to the stuff we contibute to the environment - but we are not the only reason - its something the earth will still due just less of an effect if it werent for us polluting and destroying the earth so much. Changing climates were also notice by scientist who study amphibians - this was notice becuase like an example of the golden toad found in SA, these are amphibians that can only live in one place in one type of environment around the world and once they are gone they are gone (known as an endemic species). Well these types of amphibians are used as indicators to climate change becuase they are so sensitive and in the past so many years they have been reduced in numbers or become extinct totally, which could be a cause for concern, becuase that shows that climates are infact changing. I will say that I dont think people really care about what is happening to our environment and I do think that the media hypes it up as to more then what it is becuase thats what they do. Also just think of this to what do most people esp politicians do for money? In no way did I say you have to accept the opinions of what I have learned I do think some are good points but then again some are just good to think about. While we are on it - as for global things happening in 50 years where I am sitting may or may not be underwater because of what decisions people make and this is one awesome place it would suck to lose it (oh and its awesme b/c of the strange diversity of animals) =)
 
hamato_yoshii;722452; said:
"peer review" this opens up a whole other can of worms.

Thats a fact........ I always like how they qualify it with any "reputable" because then you have to argue if the person is reputable and anyone that dosen't agree with them is a crack pot. :ROFL: Sad but true.

Since we have reached the point of quailying facts I've done all I can so I'll pass this topic on to someone else and just watch. :popcorn:
 
http://www.sitewave.net/news/s49p1083.htm


WSJ: Global Warming 300-year-old news


January 18, 2000
Global Warming
Is 300-Year-Old News
By Arthur B. Robinson and Noah E. Robinson, chemists at the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine.

Opponents of the use of coal, oil and natural gas -- the world's primary energy sources -- received what looked to be good news last week. A National Research Council panel of 11 members, after reviewing and evaluating existing experimental data over the last 20 years, concluded that there has probably been a rise in the Earth's surface temperature.

Unfortunately for advocates of the Kyoto treaty, atmospheric temperatures over the same two decades have not risen. The climate model chosen to support the Kyoto plan -- a scheme to sharply reduce energy use -- predicts that atmospheric temperature should have risen by one degree to two degrees Fahrenheit over those 20 years. Yet satellites and weather balloons have shown no verifiable atmospheric temperature rise.

Indeed, despite the hype, the NRC findings do little to advance the argument that people have caused global warming. The NRC panel's 85-page report, though concluding that surface temperature has risen a little, is full of inconclusive results. The first sentence of the report's concluding remarks reads: "The various kinds of evidence examined by the panel led it to conclude that the observed disparity between the surface and lower- to mid-tropospheric [atmospheric] temperature trends during this particular 20-year period is probably at least partially real."

The report further says that uncertainties in all of the records -- surface, satellite and balloon -- are too great to draw conclusions about the relative effects of volcanic eruptions, measurement errors due to localized human activity in urban areas, instrument errors, human release of greenhouse gases and other factors. The report concludes that "major advances" in scientific methods will be necessary before these questions can be resolved.

A Lost Myth

Other findings have also been inconclusive. The Commerce Department announced that U.S. surface temperatures in 1999 were the second-warmest on record. What the department failed to mention is that it has other surface records in which 1999 falls below 1934, and that NASA ranks 1999 as the 14th-warmest-year of the century. In the global atmosphere, satellites show 12 years warmer than 1999 and 8 cooler, while weather balloons show 15 warmer and 27 cooler.

All this is bad news for the antitechnologists. They desperately needed word of their long-awaited "greenhouse signal," due to arrive with the new millennium. Now, in the absence of more solid proof, opposition to their global plans will continue to grow. Already, more than 17,000 American scientists have signed a petition opposing the Kyoto treaty. Treaty supporters, meanwhile, are increasingly relying on their multimillion-dollar media campaign promoting a perception of human-caused global warming.

That the Earth is warming is, of course, very old news. The current warming trend began about 300 years ago, at the low point of the Little Ice Age. Indeed, receding glaciers and other geographic phenomena caused by this 300-year trend were cited by the NRC committee as support for their belief that the current rise in surface temperatures is probably real.

This rising trend and the fluctuations within it are closely correlated with solar activity. Solar increases during the early 20th century caused a substantial rise in temperatures. This was followed by a cooling cycle. During this latter period, environmentalists spread doomsday scenarios about "global cooling" -- a phenomenon, they claimed, caused by hydrocarbon fuels. Over the last 20 years, temperatures leveled, and now may be resuming their previous rise. The change has allowed the same environmentalists to spread fears of "global warming" -- demonizing, of course, hydrocarbon fuels.

The chart nearby places all of this in historical perspective. Derived from isotopic ratios in the skeletons of marine organisms deposited in a region of the Atlantic Ocean, this record shows temperatures during the past three millennia. Clearly seen are the Little Ice Age and the much warmer period about 1000 years ago known as the Medieval Climate Optimum, so named because the climate was unusually benign. Earth temperatures are now near the 3,000-year average and clearly not unusual.

What will temperatures be during the 21st century and beyond? No one knows. Astronomers are not yet able to predict future solar activity. If current trends continue, however, our environment will be much improved.

Already, plant growth and diversity -- from the forests and fields of North America to the rain forests of South America -- have shown a marked increase. This is the result of carbon dioxide fertilization, a process that occurs when man moves carbon from below-ground deposits of coal, oil and natural gas, and puts it into the atmosphere where it is then used to make more plants and animals.

Some studies indicate that North American forests are growing so fast that they are storing all of the human-released carbon from North America. Animals, because they eat plants, have increased just as rapidly. When this biological miracle stabilizes -- one or two centuries in the future -- it is estimated that the plant and animal population of the Earth may have doubled. Farm production is also being increased by carbon dioxide fertilization, and will continue to accelerate.

A warmer planet, with milder weather (as experienced during medieval times) and much more wildlife -- how could a true environmentalist wish for more? Worries about flooding in this warmer world are unjustifiable. Floods did not occur 1000 years ago. Scientists have shown that it would take thousands of years for the ice caps to melt, if they melted at all. As warmer temperatures increase snow in the polar regions, sea levels might actually decrease.

Technological Wealth

Meanwhile, short-term efforts to improve the environment, such as the plan by California's South Coast Air Quality Management District to require all public vehicles to be powered by electricity, natural gas, or other clean-burning fuels, will use more hydrocarbon fuels rather than less. Electricity -- especially now that nuclear power and hydroelectric dams are considered politically incorrect -- will continue to be produced primarily by burning hydrocarbons. The energy delivered to an electric car requires more hydrocarbon fuel per mile than does the direct use of hydrocarbon fuel.

Our scientists and engineers have provided the technological wealth that now finances most of our environmental programs. They will continue to do so unless pseudo-environmentalism torpedoes our economic progress along with the hopes and futures of billions of people in the less developed world.
 
DavidW;722513; said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_B._Robinson

Arthur B. Robinson is founder, president and professor of chemistry at the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine, where he conducts research on protein chemistry and on nutrition and predictive and preventive medicine. He also sells the Robinson Curriculum, which promises to "Teach your children...to acquire superior knowledge as did many...in the days before socialism in education". He is an avowed Christian fundamentalist.

So we should dicount his evidence and believe some one who is a DEVOUT ATHEIST? Thier beliefs somehow don't affect their work?
 
DavidW;722506; said:
'qualifying facts'???

simply asking you to provide some facts.or even a 'preponderance of the evidence'...

The future is not written in stone on the subject of global warming and climate change, hopefully the situation will change enough that current worst case scenarios don;t happen, perhaps through new technology, or perhaps by a large species die-off ( ours)
We live in a world of cause and effect, governed by the physical laws of the universe.
The obvious cause of consuming more than is sustainable is followed by the inevitable effect of collapse. We humans are consuming way more than is sustainable......simple cause and effect, either we moderate ourselves or the lwas of nature ( the universe) will catch up with us.

I also find it interesting how the bible is used so selectively. It seems to me that if the bible is to be believed then you cannot pick and choose what parts to believe but take every word as " gospel"?
please someone tell me if that is so or not, as it will lead to a few more questions
:)

I'm not sure what you mean, the Gospels are the first 4 books of the New Testament, so I dont really know what your asking.
 
DavidW;722513; said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_B._Robinson

Arthur B. Robinson is founder, president and professor of chemistry at the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine, where he conducts research on protein chemistry and on nutrition and predictive and preventive medicine. He also sells the Robinson Curriculum, which promises to "Teach your children...to acquire superior knowledge as did many...in the days before socialism in education". He is an avowed Christian fundamentalist.


point being?
 
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