Kelberi variants

[Cichlidgeek]

James,
I appreciate your information and the time it took to sort through it all and then make an educated post about it.
Think of this: C. kelberi are found over a broad area. And again, I seem to have to remind people on a constant basis that all Cichla are HIGHLY variable...even within a specific collection area. That said, we can expect a small degree of variation among all batches of imports, and certainly a larger degree of variation among batches from different collection locales. Also, keep in mind that many C. kelberi are transplants from other stocks...some of which were not even native themselves. Thus, after time there will be a specific "look" that a population takes on...thus the developement of what we call a "race" or "variant." That's how we can say that C. kelberi from the Cera region "tend" to be darker, or C. kelberi from the Rio Sao Francisco "tend" to be more brilliant gold...etc....does that make sense??
--Brian

 

[X-Tank]

Thanks Brian. That definitely made sense.
I was thinking all species have their own genotype. All we see right now may be just different phenotype activated or expressed by environement, food, temperature, etc.
The only way we can tell is to do genome comparison run some PCR, but then we don't even have the marker to compare..... plus that will cost $$$$ of money.
This may explain sometime you have a group of fish got sepeated by earthquake, natural disater... later two group deferenciate into their own distinct phenotype.

Just a wild thought.... ranchu, bubble head, ryukin are all goldfish. If you run their DNA, which's been done before all share the same as common goldfish..... ect..... but then now we are seeing is their phenotype due selection.

 

[Cichlidgeek]

James,
I agree 100%. In fact, have a look at Cyphotilapia. The northern members of the genus all belong to C. frontosa. Of them, there are two different phenotypes...one showing six bars and the other showing seven bars. When the DNA sampling was done, it showed that their genotypes were too similar to split the fish into seperate species. However, when meristic and morphometric data was combined with DNA sequencing to compare the northern member to the southern members it was determined that the southern population of Cyphotilapia were in fact different enough to be classified as new species. Ironically the southern species, now called C. gibberosa, shows six bars like half of the northern population but is more bluer than the northern cousins.

The same argument can be made for most of Cichla. Have a look at the close comparison between C. melanae and C. intermedia. The look very similar, yet are different species but yet still inhabit the same ecological nich (fast water). Go figure. Ain't science fun

I think there is a lot of mysteries yet to be discovered with Cichla

 

[CichlaRyan]

great find james, >.> why did the mods have to merge the old kelberi thread =[ man.. Great find though this will help loads.

 

[X-Tank]

I think there is a lot of mysteries yet to be discovered with Cichla

That's the fun part of it. If all mysteries are solved.. then life is no fun anymore...

The thing got me excited today was kelberi from minas gerais and sao paulo will most likely end up to be different variants, which what I crave for. I don't want all kelberi turn out to be gold bar. The fun is to collect different distinct variants of one species.
So far from what I read...

holotype: para tucurui

paratypes: araguaia and tocantins

non-type translocation: Minas gerais, rio paraiba, Ceara, and rio parana ( which is san paulo )

Brian: please explain what those fancy words mean.

 

[channarox]

nice read james....interesting to see how all the batches of kelberi will turn out...

 

[Cichlidgeek]

That's the fun part of it. If all mysteries are solved.. then life is no fun anymore...

The thing got me excited today was kelberi from minas gerais and sao paulo will most likely end up to be different variants, which what I crave for. I don't want all kelberi turn out to be gold bar. The fun is to collect different distinct variants of one species.
So far from what I read...

holotype: para tucurui

paratypes: araguaia and tocantins

non-type translocation: Minas gerais, rio paraiba, Ceara, and rio parana ( which is san paulo )

Brian: please explain what those fancy words mean.

I could explain it, but Wiki does it better
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A holotype is one of several possible biological types. A type is what fixes a name to a taxon. A holotype is a single physical example (or illustration) of an organism, known to have been used when the species (or lower-ranked taxon) was formally described. It is either the single such physical example (or illustration) or one of several such, but explicitly designated as the holotype.

In zoological nomenclature, a paratype is officially defined as a "Each specimen of a type series other than the holotype"[1]
In turn, this does depend on the definition of "type series." A type series is the material that was cited in the original publication of the new species or subspecies, and was not excluded from being type material by the author (the exclusion can be implicit, e.g., if an author mentions "paratypes" and then subsequently mentions "other material examined," the latter are not included in the type series), nor referred to as a variant, or only dubiously included in the taxon (e.g., a statement such as "I have before me a specimen which agrees in most respects with the remainder of the type series, though it may yet prove to be distinct" would exclude this specimen from the type series).
So in a type series of five specimens, if one is the holotype, the other four will be paratypes.
A paratype may originate from a different locality than the holotype. A paratype cannot become a lectotype, though it is eligible (and often desirable) for designation as a neotype.

In my own words, Non-type Translocations are specimens that were collected from areas where that species was known to have been introduced. For example, in some resevoirs in Minas Gerais there exists speciemns of a species introduced as C. ocellaris. We know now that the C. ocellaris in those resevoirs are actually C. kelberi, so any speciemen collected from a non-natural area of distribution is considered a Non-type specimen.

Good??

 

[R1_Ridah]

slow down fish scientist, if you are offended by what i told you, which was intended as a joke!!! i APPOLIGIZE again, from now on i will stay off your threads!!!! because obviouly you want more constructive responses!!! sorry to interupt your learning class thread here!!!
thats 2x JAMES.... i informed you about... have a GOOD DAY

Does this mean we are all not going fishing? =-(

Okay, both you & James off to the corner for timeout. Step away from the keyboard and both of you guys take a deep breath. Seriously, at the end of the day you will both realize this is all over fish

This is a time of celebration w/all these PBASS being readily available. I'm sure some words have been lost in translation along the way but not worth loosing the friendship over fish drama.

I have an idea, both of you guys hand over all your Cichla to me. You guys can get into guppies or something.... which I am sure Guppy Hobbyist also has their share of drama...LOL....

Let's all grab a beer next week sometime and meet up at Hooters over in Santa Monica.... nothing like a glass of beer and hooters to look at to brighten up one's day

 

[mjuniorc]

Does this mean we are all not going fishing? =-(

Okay, both you & James off to the corner for timeout. Step away from the keyboard and both of you guys take a deep breath. Seriously, at the end of the day you will both realize this is all over fish

This is a time of celebration w/all these PBASS being readily available. I'm sure some words have been lost in translation along the way but not worth loosing the friendship over fish drama.

I have an idea, both of you guys hand over all your Cichla to me. You guys can get into guppies or something.... which I am sure Guppy Hobbyist also has their share of drama...LOL....

Let's all grab a beer next week sometime and meet up at Hooters over in Santa Monica.... nothing like a glass of beer and hooters to look at to brighten up one's day

LMAO...... YES SIR!!!!!!

 

[CichlaRyan]

Does this mean we are all not going fishing? =-(

Okay, both you & James off to the corner for timeout. Step away from the keyboard and both of you guys take a deep breath. Seriously, at the end of the day you will both realize this is all over fish

This is a time of celebration w/all these PBASS being readily available. I'm sure some words have been lost in translation along the way but not worth loosing the friendship over fish drama.

I have an idea, both of you guys hand over all your Cichla to me. You guys can get into guppies or something.... which I am sure Guppy Hobbyist also has their share of drama...LOL....

Let's all grab a beer next week sometime and meet up at Hooters over in Santa Monica.... nothing like a glass of beer and hooters to look at to brighten up one's day

thats alloooot of cichla for one person lol. Sharing is caring?