Keyhole Cichlid aggression

[neutrino]

I've talked to a few different people online before I got them. One with a 40 breeder consisting of a pair of Keyholes among other community fish and one with a 55 gallon consisting of 7 adult Keyholes and a pair among them with other community fish. I usually don't trust online profiles but rather read about other's experiences on forums like this, which is why i've been dumbfounded with all that has happened.

So are you suggesting that I can't keep anything else in the 40 gallon with a pair? Or I should approach it with caution? I'm definitely not up for just 2 fish in there. I'll get rid of 3 or all of them if it means I can keep schooling fish or corydoras.

The primary difference is 7 vs. 4, and a little bigger tank, the larger group is more likely to see social behavior. For example, I've had severum communities of 8-10 including a breeding pair or two and they were fine, each pair had a spot they'd retreat to for breeding. Cichlids vary regarding how many are likely to make a peaceful group. Species, gender, breeding or not, tank size, individual temperament are all factors.

I don't have the Central American knowledge Duane has and will nearly always defer to him in that area, but I've kept cichlid communities for decades and it absolutely can be done-- I've done more combinations than I can list or probably remember, including a good number of SA cichlid communities of varying species and sizes. I've also kept breeding pairs of different species or the same species in the same tank; no, it wont work in every tank or with every species, but I've absolutely done that a number of times, also, and had peaceful tanks without drama of any consequence.

I do agree aggression or peacefulness is relative. Let me tell you a story about that. Had an African tank once (one of many) with sub-adult haps and peacocks. In the tank was a small group of C. moori (commonly known as blue dolphin cichlids) that turned into punks at 5", got worse and worse chasing the other cichlids in the tank-- Oh, yeah, I said, and put a 10" green terror (gold edged male rivulatus) in the tank, See how you like this! Green terrors have worked well for me to boss peacock and medium hap tanks. Not that interested in them, but for me they were a good fish to keep order, even breaking up fights between other fish. Soon as the GT hit the tank the moorii were in awe, it was comical-- and it put an instant end to their aggression.

Moral of the story, aggression is relative to what else is in the tank-- I've seen it a hundred times in cichlid communities, old and new world-- though, as I say, my Central American experience is limited.

So-- if you're not interested in breeding, a possibility is to keep one of the non-paired fish-- you might be able to sell or trade the paired fish as a pair that will likely breed in the right circumstances-- and try some other fish with the remaining keyhole in the tank-- possibilities depend on footprint, making the footprint question relevant.

Meanwhile, you could try dividing the tank to keep the combatants apart if you can't change things right away.

 

[neutrino]

Seriously-- there's no end to possible SA cichlid communities:

Exhibit A -- 40 gal with keyhole
Exhibit B -- mixed species and temperaments

There's a bit of an art to it, sometimes it takes some tinkering or trial and error, but it can absolutely be done.

 

[Ravynn]

Keyholes are very peaceful, bordering on shy. If you had them with other species they would probably never touch them.

However, any breeding pair of cichlids is another story. Even the most peaceful cichlids are going to be territorial and aggressive to protect their spawn.

I have pairs of rams, considered one of the most peaceful and small cichlids, and they were attacking and chasing 5” fish when they laid eggs in one of my growout tanks. I had to separate them because they were making the tankmates crazy. It’s just the nature of breeding cichlids.

My suggestion, if you have no interest in breeding them, is to try and keep all males. You can’t keep all females because lots of female cichlids will form same-sex pairs and act just as nasty and territorial as a m/f pair.

What is the footprint on your 40 gallon? Is it a 40 breeder?

I have the 2 unpaired male and female back in quarantine. Would you say keeping the 2 males would work? It looks like they're the same size as eachother now too. How would I go about re-introducing them? I would obviously have to catch the female first and put her back in quarantine and net the male out again.

Yes, it's a 40 breeder. 36"x18"x16". Also want to mention i'm not interested in housing other species of cichlids in this tank.

 

[Ravynn]

So-- if you're not interested in breeding, a possibility is to keep one of the non-paired fish-- you might be able to sell or trade the paired fish as a pair that will likely breed in the right circumstances-- and try some other fish with the remaining keyhole in the tank-- possibilities depend on footprint, making the footprint question relevant.

Meanwhile, you could try dividing the tank to keep the combatants apart if you can't change things right away.

As mentioned above, would you recommend keeping 2 males or is 1 better? They've been separated since this afternoon as well.

 

[neutrino]

As mentioned above, would you recommend keeping 2 males or is 1 better? They've been separated since this afternoon as well.

Very unlikely the males would get along imo, especially given their history and the tank dimensions. I've been there, trying to reintroduce combative males, and the possible ways to do it would require an appreciably bigger tank (longer footprint, especially), containing enough fish to diffuse attention and focus, and some time for hormones to cool off, focus to change, etc... like weeks, preferably longer. Even then there's no guarantee (and for some species almost no way to make peace between males once they decide they don't like each other).

I hate saying something's not possible, I've seen cases where crazy stuff works, but I wouldn't do it in a tank with those dimensions. Bigger tank, established community of a number of fish, and I might try it after some time has passed. Or-- bigger tank, put a divider between them, see how they behave as time passes before making an attempt, and be aware the same thing could happen as soon as you put them together. But I wouldn't do it with those tank dimensions. Imo the options are for the pair or a single, then some smaller schooling fish and/or a small number of peaceful, small non-cichlids (or other smaller cichlids if you hadn't eliminated the possibility).

 

[Ravynn]

Very unlikely the males would get along imo, especially given their history and the tank dimensions. I've been there, trying to reintroduce combative males, and the possible ways to do it would require an appreciably bigger tank (longer footprint, especially), containing enough fish to diffuse attention and focus, and some time for hormones to cool off, focus to change, etc... like weeks, preferably longer. Even then there's no guarantee (and for some species almost no way to make peace between males once they decide they don't like each other).

I hate saying something's not possible, I've seen cases where crazy stuff works, but I wouldn't do it in a tank with those dimensions. Bigger tank, established community of a number of fish, and I might try it after some time has passed. Or-- bigger tank, put a divider between them, see how they behave as time passes before making an attempt, and be aware the same thing could happen as soon as you put them together. But I wouldn't do it with those tank dimensions. Imo the options are for the pair or a single, then some smaller schooling fish and/or a small number of peaceful, small non-cichlids (or other smaller cichlids if you hadn't eliminated the possibility).

The 2 males were the first to start bickering in quarantine, so maybe i'll just leave everyone where they are now. I'm kind of stressed from making them stressed. It's safe to say a bigger tank is not in order as this 40 breeder is the biggest and last tank I can personally take care of. I don't have the room to keep the other 2 unpaired Keyholes so i'll need to sell/rehome them soon as well.

Would you say this would be a good plan?
*Keep the pair, sell the unpaired Keyholes, get a school of tetras/quarantine them then introduce them to the pair of Keyholes and if the pair doesn't tolerate other fish, separate the pair? Would I keep the male or female? I've noticed the female in the pair has been the most docile out of the 4 this entire time, she doesn't even eyeball the pleco.

As far as other tankmates go, I was originally only planning on 2 schools of 2 different species of tetra and 1 small group of corydoras aeneus. I've heard of some people keeping a bolivian ram with their Keyholes but i'm kind of nervous about putting a different species of cichlid in with them.

 

[neutrino]

Would you say this would be a good plan?
*Keep the pair, sell the unpaired Keyholes, get a school of tetras/quarantine them then introduce them to the pair of Keyholes and if the pair doesn't tolerate other fish, separate the pair? Would I keep the male or female? I've noticed the female in the pair has been the most docile out of the 4 this entire time, she doesn't even eyeball the pleco.

As far as other tankmates go, I was originally only planning on 2 schools of 2 different species of tetra and 1 small group of corydoras aeneus. I've heard of some people keeping a bolivian ram with their Keyholes but i'm kind of nervous about putting a different species of cichlid in with them.

Would be what I'd try to do. I'd be tempted to try a ram also, and make a little area for the ram at an opposite end of the tank with some seclusion created by plants and/or driftwood, etc. When I had rams-- SA cichlid community-- they mostly seemed content to find a spot somewhere and stay in that vicinity much of the time except to venture further out at feeding time.

Some tanks just take some tinkering ime, and I don't mind it, so for me I'd take that shot and see what happens, but that's just me.

 

[Ravynn]

Would be what I'd try to do. I'd be tempted to try a ram also, and make a little area for the ram at an opposite end of the tank with some seclusion created by plants and/or driftwood, etc. When I had rams-- SA cichlid community-- they mostly seemed content to find a spot somewhere and stay in that vicinity much of the time except to venture further out at feeding time.

Some tanks just take some tinkering ime, and I don't mind it, so for me I'd take that shot and see what happens, but that's just me.

The Keyholes have picked the far right side of the tank for them and their spawn. The far left has a little area hidden by the big sponge filter/driftwood. If you think a Bolivian could still work with them, I might get one of those instead of a group of cories. That would look like a nice stock: Keyhole pair, single Bolivian, single BN and lots of tetras.

 

[neutrino]

I wouldn't go as far as to guarantee it, you can't always predict how crazy a fish gets with breeding hormones, but from my experience I'd try it, could make an interesting tank. For me, rams have been feisty enough to stake out a defensible nook in a reasonably peaceful SA community, including some larger fish, like Mesonauta, or a big angelfish pair. They were bigger tanks, but also larger and more fish.

Of course, with a keyhole pair, you could end up with some fry to deal with. I've had breeding pairs, such as geos, in community tanks, which meant I could choose to save fry and siphon them out to raise in a growout tank at some point, or let nature take its course, in which case a few might hide well enough to make it anyway, which may or may not happen with a BN and plenty of tetras in the tank.

 

[Ravynn]

I wouldn't go as far as to guarantee it, you can't always predict how crazy a fish gets with breeding hormones, but from my experience I'd try it, could make an interesting tank. For me, rams have been feisty enough to stake out a defensible nook in a reasonably peaceful SA community, including some larger fish, like Mesonauta, or a big angelfish pair. They were bigger tanks, but also larger and more fish.

Of course, with a keyhole pair, you could end up with some fry to deal with. I've had breeding pairs, such as geos, in community tanks, which meant I could choose to save fry and siphon them out to raise in a growout tank at some point, or let nature take its course, in which case a few might hide well enough to make it anyway, which may or may not happen with a BN and plenty of tetras in the tank.

It's nothing to compare to since it's not a cichlid but the "aggressive" male in the pair that was tormenting the others has actually been quite nice to the BN. The BN gets brave and goes near their spawn (which are 1-2 days from free swimming actually.. there's about 25 there) and the male just swims up to him to let him know to get out of there but doesn't touch him. Makes me kind of hopeful for some other species.