Lack of oxygen killed stingrays, Calgary Zoo admits

[basslover34]

And then when prices to get in triple (or more), zoos/aquarium close because nobody comes.


Most have a lot of off exhibit holdings. All of them have back up and contingency plans. However, just like home tanks, you can't cover 100% of everything that MIGHT happen. And with the scale of these big displays, it's not like dropping in an airstone and adding a hang on the back filter will work. When a major system goes down, it's months worth of work and hundreds of man hours to recover. Just adding a new filter can take a month or more.

If they can't afford their display then they simply should not have it, I am aware of the off exhibit holdings but what I don't understand is how their main display doesn't have the most basic of warning systems in place as it is their most obvious point of failure since it is in contact with the general public and will most likly have the most population of their high dollar fish, having a simple $100 oyxgen meter in the display could have saved them not only the cost of the rays but also the lost revenue of the exhibit being shut down itself. Personally this display not having even the cheapest of sensors attached to it seems like a mechanic without tools. I know it comes down to money but I really don't think that they should be in taking on these types of things if they can't afford to do it properly (Which if I understand correctly there is no shortage of availble cash from the zoo in question)

 

[Zoodiver]

Believe me when I tell you that most places running a number of meters that most hobbiest don't even know can be used to watch things.
The truth is that even knowing there is a problem when it happens is often too late.

My understanding of this situation was also mixed problems, not just one thing (I might be wrong). A pump went down, temps rose quickly and the system was at it's peak for bioload already. With a system of that size, once you know something is wrong, it's often too late. It's not like finding your filter off on a 150 gallon tank, and tossing in an extra airstone quickly to correct a low DO. By the time the fish show it, it's usually too late to get the require amount of oxygen disolved into that volume of water. Getting a temp down on that size pool can take DAYS. Up is easy to do.

 

[CORVETTE]

It was also hidden buy someone on the staff.... And when it came to figuring out what was wrong some one had mixed higly oxygenated water in with the tank....Yes your right guys some one screwed up looking after fish then tried to cover it up. I feel sorry for the zoo it went through a lot of work and money stting this up and let me tell you they haven't made it back. The venue was beautiful and seemed to be well like buy the rays....there is always human error and cover ups, but the zoo did the right thing in comming forward and telling everyone what happened. Did all of you do that on here the first time you screwed up and a fish died? IF it wasn't for zoo's my childrens,children might not ever see some animals i grew up with. Rememeber they are alot like us keeping our wild caught specimens and show them to our friends maybe peta will be after us next? Lets stand behind our zoos and help them so they don't make mistakes like this.

 

[basslover34]

Believe me when I tell you that most places running a number of meters that most hobbiest don't even know can be used to watch things.
The truth is that even knowing there is a problem when it happens is often too late.

My understanding of this situation was also mixed problems, not just one thing (I might be wrong). A pump went down, temps rose quickly and the system was at it's peak for bioload already. With a system of that size, once you know something is wrong, it's often too late. It's not like finding your filter off on a 150 gallon tank, and tossing in an extra airstone quickly to correct a low DO. By the time the fish show it, it's usually too late to get the require amount of oxygen disolved into that volume of water. Getting a temp down on that size pool can take DAYS. Up is easy to do.

So you don't think that proper monitoring would have told of these issues long before hand and they could have made a desicion to move the animals to the holding tanks before the deaths? or been able to get the pump fixed (which why on earth would they be relying on only "Just enough" pumps to get by is beyond me) or replaced as I'm sure that they should have some sort of a alarm for a pump failure and would have known of that quickly?

We are not talking rocket science in fish keeping but what alot of high end home aquarists would have (I sure hope that public displays are at least in the realm of a them... Other wise I have a 2 yr old I can hire out to design some public displays )

I respect your experience and look to your posts for alot of advice but I seriously think that your intent on defending the zoo more than seeing that this should have and could have been avoided at a much smaller cost than the loss of 95% of their rays.

IMO Plane and simple... this could have been prevented

 

[CORVETTE]

You guys have to realize we aren't totally sure of what has happened just some of the info has come out maybe an employee chose to ignore the warning signs? they say someone tried to hide it after the fact. It could be one individuals fault they don't say.

 

[basslover34]

It was also hidden buy someone on the staff.... And when it came to figuring out what was wrong some one had mixed higly oxygenated water in with the tank....Yes your right guys some one screwed up looking after fish then tried to cover it up. I feel sorry for the zoo it went through a lot of work and money stting this up and let me tell you they haven't made it back. The venue was beautiful and seemed to be well like buy the rays....there is always human error and cover ups, but the zoo did the right thing in comming forward and telling everyone what happened. Did all of you do that on here the first time you screwed up and a fish died? IF it wasn't for zoo's my childrens,children might not ever see some animals i grew up with. Rememeber they are alot like us keeping our wild caught specimens and show them to our friends maybe peta will be after us next? Lets stand behind our zoos and help them so they don't make mistakes like this.

It's not a matter of standing behind the zoos, I think we all enjoy them and love these types of displays... the problem isn't in the zoo and it's display it is that they got involved in something that they didn't understand and didn't take the approprate messures to ensure the well being of their animals... would you own a Lion without proper training, equipment, space, funds to ensure proper care should this lion need it? I admit that it would be cool but the reality is that I wouldn't even dream of it without learning ALOT more about it and ensuring that I was able to house it comfortably and had a vet that was prepared to deal with it (since I'm not a vet I would need that care and don't think that the average vet around here would be able to deal with it either)

The Zoo wanted a cool display and thats fine.. but because it took short cuts to get it... they are paying for it... literally!

 

[basslover34]

You guys have to realize we aren't totally sure of what has happened just some of the info has come out maybe an employee chose to ignore the warning signs? they say someone tried to hide it after the fact. It could be one individuals fault they don't say.

Where are you reading a "cover up"? They simply said that when they were capturing the rays they added Oxygen into the water by disturbing it and it fooled subsuquent tests...

 

[Zoodiver]

In my experience sometimes things like this can't be prevented. I've seen it first hand. I've been in tanks fully clothed pulling animals out. I've been in the dark holding flashlights with my teeth to do emergancy plumbing in the middle of the night. I've even gone into work in what I was sleeping in b/c an alarm called me in the middle of the night with a problem.
Zoos/Aquariums are like a lot of us. How many of us have the same amount of empty tanks up and running in case one of our inhabited tanks crashes? Say a pump goes down. It's not simply dropping in a new pump or filter, like an FX5 you pull out of the box, run water to and call it good. Most of these pumps are 25 hp units, that are hard plumbed in with sch 80 PVC. It takes all day to swap one - even if you have the back up there on site. And if you are suddenly investing your staff's time swapping the pump, then there is nobody addressing the other issues like DO levels, temp level and animals. It's a risk that is run. 99.99% of the time, it works well enough to have amazing displays for guest. When the .01% happens, it's in the news for weeks.

As for the idea of money....money is ALWAYS an issue. Zoos might apprear to have a lot over all, but usually it's not in the limited budgets allowed to do projects and maintain LSS etc... I've yet to run into an aquarium worker anywhere in the world who is happy with the amount of upkeep they can do based on their given budgets.

I'm sure they had/have all the "normal" sensors and meters in place. Even with them, things fail. You just hear about it more because they are rare, and usually quite large - like in this case.

 

[basslover34]

In my experience sometimes things like this can't be prevented.

Perhaps not all the deaths could have been, but a good number of them should have been

I've seen it first hand. I've been in tanks fully clothed pulling animals out. I've been in the dark holding flashlights with my teeth to do emergancy plumbing in the middle of the night. I've even gone into work in what I was sleeping in b/c an alarm called me in the middle of the night with a problem.

So what your saying is that an alarm rings and your doing what is needed to prevent losses in the whole tank... I guess alarms must work since your using them as well

Zoos/Aquariums are like a lot of us. How many of us have the same amount of empty tanks up and running in case one of our inhabited tanks crashes?

No one ever said to have the same number of empty tanks running incase of a crash...(They themselves stated that they had moved the remaining rays to the holding tanks, so they obviously had them available)

Say a pump goes down.

A pump goes down (sorry had to do it )

It's not simply dropping in a new pump or filter, like an FX5 you pull out of the box, run water to and call it good. Most of these pumps are 25 hp units, that are hard plumbed in with sch 80 PVC. It takes all day to swap one - even if you have the back up there on site.

regardless of the time it takes to get the job done (shouldn't take that amount of time, we regularly swap out high volume pumps for Imperial oil in 3-5 hours)

And if you are suddenly investing your staff's time swapping the pump, then there is nobody addressing the other issues like DO levels, temp level and animals.

Since when does a plumber have anything to do with the display and it's issues, Perhaps that is why it's taking your facility so long to swap out the pumps?

It's a risk that is run. 99.99% of the time, it works well enough to have amazing displays for guest. When the .01% happens, it's in the news for weeks.

and when it's avoidable it should be so that it doesn't happen again, either at that facility or any other

As for the idea of money....money is ALWAYS an issue. Zoos might apprear to have a lot over all, but usually it's not in the limited budgets allowed to do projects and maintain LSS etc... I've yet to run into an aquarium worker anywhere in the world who is happy with the amount of upkeep they can do based on their given budgets.

Welcome to the wonderful world of being in business, it's always about money and always will be... which is why animals will suffer, what needs to be shown is how this could have been avoided at a fraction of the cost of replacing all these rays and lost business over the past year... Money talks in both directions my friend

I'm sure they had/have all the "normal" sensors and meters in place. Even with them, things fail. You just hear about it more because they are rare, and usually quite large - like in this case.

If the sensors /meters had been in place then there wouldn't have been an issue to begin with as they would have seen the DO drop and could have corrected it... Apparently just splashing around in the display was enough to fool "subsiquent tests" which also tells me that they have NO LIVE MONITORING!

 

[DB junkie]

It's easy to form a one sided opinion. Would YOUR opinion be the same if you were an employee there?

There are only a handfull of people that could even understand both sides. So I guess unless you have worked in the trade (like Matt) you're opinion is not only biased but missing some VERY important info.

At first I wanted to put blame on the zoo, but after hearing from someone actually educated in this trade AND appproaching with an open mind why is this really any different then chain fish stores? As an employee you do what you're told and risk loosing your job if you don't follow the rules, regardless of what you think is "right" or "wrong"

I've made mistakes and killed plenty of fish, my freezer proves that. Guess what? It's part of the hobby/trade. Everyone does it. Some can admit it and some choose to point the finger at everyone besides the person at fault (themselves).