Lima versus elongatus ID thread

thebiggerthebetter

Senior Curator
Staff member
MFK Member
Dec 31, 2009
15,694
14,060
3,910
Naples, FL, USA
The two-pack of the youngsters is now about 8"; still not big enough to join their 18 kin and their more dangerous tank mates in another tank. They seem comfortable despite the formidable crew in their current tank though. Their appetite is enviable. Them and their tank mates:


The 18-pack. The feeding behavior is poor because the fish are not used to having the tank lights on, not to mention that LSN in general hate light; also placing a camera in the tank made the fish uneasy and skittish:

 
  • Like
Reactions: Iamfish and moe214

thebiggerthebetter

Senior Curator
Staff member
MFK Member
Dec 31, 2009
15,694
14,060
3,910
Naples, FL, USA
Yearly update.

Both of the smaller ones have fallen to my cohabbing misjudgments. One was killed by the baby ATFs in the same 240 gal, so I transferred the remaining one with the 18 pack of the older ones in their 240 gal, where it was dispatched by 6 FL gar juvies, who I underestimated. They couldn't eat it but kept biting it.

The 18-pack had been reduced to a 17-pack as the problematic 24" tig catfish that was with them tried to eat one of the smallest lima, holding it in its mouth tail first for several days (!?) and then spitting it out. This was the tig that stopped feeding and fasted for 6 months for unknown reasons and this lima incident occurred somewhere in the middle of it. The tig was transferred with the other 8 tigs in their 240 gal after this.

From Nov 2019:




The 8 biggest of the 17 LSN finally got a much needed upgrade to an 1800 gal a week ago. I tried to break their snouts so they grow back straight but found

-- first it was very hard, their broken snouts healed such that the point of the former breakage is as strong or stronger than their intact upper jaw bone, (in fact I am mightily surprised that they managed to break their upper jaw... it is incredibly strong for such a seemingly fragile and thin body part) and

-- second that I'd need to bandage the snout to keep the again-broken jaw straight, which I couldn't do, didn't know how, nor was prepared.

24:40 minutes:


 

thebiggerthebetter

Senior Curator
Staff member
MFK Member
Dec 31, 2009
15,694
14,060
3,910
Naples, FL, USA
The 8 biggest LSN have been well in the 1800 gal. Although they turn out to be glass lickers they swim around a LOT more and are a LOT more relaxed and feed like pigs. I can touch them with my hand when throwing the feed in whilst in the 240 gal if I didn't approach it right or did anything out of the ordinary they would freak out. Big difference.

100_9057.JPG100_9064.JPG100_9112.JPG
 

thebiggerthebetter

Senior Curator
Staff member
MFK Member
Dec 31, 2009
15,694
14,060
3,910
Naples, FL, USA
Suddenly one of the bigger ones I found dead one morning, the first casualty among the bigger pack. No damage on it. The head was red. Perhaps a bone from the cut herring that I feed them pierced an important organ the night before. IDK. Just guessing. They feed like there is no tomorrow, snatching large herring pieces.

It reached 18"-19" from the starting 3" in Aug 2015, 5 years ago, when I got them from John Kreatsoulas aka snookn in Ft. Myers, FL. It broke the very tip of the upper jaw about 2 years ago.

100_9394.JPG100_9395.JPG100_9396.JPG100_9397.JPG100_9398.JPG



The smaller ones, 9 of them, from the same batch from John K. from 5 years ago that stayed behind in their original 240 gal. They are about a foot. None of them have a broken snout, I suppose, because their tank feels bigger to them versus the bigger LSN and hence they are less skittish, albeit still skittish.

100_9234 (2).JPG100_9302.JPG100_9303.JPG100_9304.JPG


* * * * *

My thoughts are that the size difference between the two groups, currently 18"-20" versus 12"-14", are due to gender or due to two different species - lima versus elongatus. It's kind of funny that the split occurred right down the middle of the original 18-pack - 9 and 9.

* * * * *
 

thebiggerthebetter

Senior Curator
Staff member
MFK Member
Dec 31, 2009
15,694
14,060
3,910
Naples, FL, USA

thebiggerthebetter

Senior Curator
Staff member
MFK Member
Dec 31, 2009
15,694
14,060
3,910
Naples, FL, USA
Rewrite of my initial write-up.

* * * * *

Here is a small write-up I made on lima shovelnose (LSN) or Sorubim lima/elongatus.

Most important: lima maxes out at 2 feet, elongatus at 1 foot. All Sorubim for sale are labeled common or lima shovelnose, never elongatus.

I used to think the vast majority of LSN sold in the US were the smaller-growing elongatus because I had almost never seen a LSN over 1’ in person. Mine never grew beyond 11", which made me assume they were elongatus, but now I know I had not kept them long enough. I had seen only several photos of US-kept 18”-24” LSN (e.g., https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/huge-lima-shovelnose-catfish.123938/). Our European peers say they see 2' LSN more often than we do in the US, but now I think this is because they are in general better, more mature keepers and keep their fish more successfully and longer.

Out of my latest batch of 18 LSN bought at 3” in 2015, today, 5 years later, half grew to 18”-20” while half is still at 12”-14”. This leads me to assume the larger are S. lima & the smaller S. elongatus & to withdraw my initial supposition that mostly elongatus is offered in the US.

It is hard to tell lima vs elongatus for laymen; here is my attempt at ID back in 2010: http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=30938 Next thread describes our LSN experience with photos & videos & a relevant excerpt from the most recent genus revision, which states the ID key is the position of the chin barbels vs gular apex: https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/lima-versus-elongatus-id-thread.524497/

The Planet Catfish entry for elongatus http://www.planetcatfish.com/common/species.php?species_id=697 offers kind of a soft ID: "Very generally, Sorubim with spots are usually S. elongatus. They are more of a black water species and, as with most such species, tend towards more variable, spotted patterning."

The info on SeriouslyFish http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/sorubim-lima/ is well written & arranged. The notes say: "(S. lima is) Distinguished from S. elongatus by having modally 9 pectoral rays; 21 anal-fin rays; 16 gill rakers..." The page does not state the counts for elongatus anywhere. Neither have I found a species page for S. elongatus. Unless I am missing something, I find this odd & not as helpful as it could have been otherwise. All other pointers refer to things that are subjective. Nevertheless, I enjoyed reading the page & learned a lot.

These ambush predators head stand with minimal motion ~vertically among vegetation & debris mimicking a twig or plant & wait for a prey. Young fish like the kin’s company & often would head stand together, tightly aligned, like mine did half the time when they were 6"-10”. Adults largely lose the gregarious trait.

LSN need not live feeder fish. They are smaller predators that snatch smaller fish, crustaceans, & insects in the wild, anything that fits in their collapsible mouth, which is relatively & surprisingly big for their slender body structure. I always feed mine pellet & frozen - small whole fish, cut fish, raw, crust-on shrimp, etc. all presoaked in VitaChem. They can do very well on pellet. My last batch started on cut fish but with time took to pellets (offered to tank mates) all by themselves & have been taking 50% or more pellets while thriving and & growing well. If I recall correctly Necrocanis of MFK reported his specimen doing exceptionally well on pellets too. When very small, mine like freeze-dried & fresh bloodworms, plankton (mini-shrimp-like creatures), etc. LSN growth is not fast, perhaps 6"-7" in one year starting from ~3".
 

thebiggerthebetter

Senior Curator
Staff member
MFK Member
Dec 31, 2009
15,694
14,060
3,910
Naples, FL, USA
One of the smaller ones from the 240 gal has given up for no reason I could point to. Eight still doing well, still stuck, not growing notably.

As you can see this one still 12" at 6 years old (has been the same size for years) versus its kin from the same batch transferred to 1800 gal of 18"-20" and growing. At least in girth for sure.

100_9518-1.JPG100_9518-2.JPG100_9518-3.JPG
 

thebiggerthebetter

Senior Curator
Staff member
MFK Member
Dec 31, 2009
15,694
14,060
3,910
Naples, FL, USA
Three more of the bigger LSN have died in 1800 gal. So only 4 remain. The manner of death is the same as with 5 tigs and 3 trachy trachy in the same 1800 gal tank - spinning death. Perhaps columnaris or some other pathogen of which we had an outbreak in 2018. I don't have any other guesses as to the cause of death.

One. 17". 6.5 years old. The broken snout just happened before the passing, during the spinning and discombobulated swimming.


100_9653-1.JPG100_9653 (2).JPG



Two. 17". 6.5 yo.


100_9653 (3).JPG



Three. 18". 6.5 yo. it broke the snout back in the 240 gal, ~3 years ago.


100_9653.JPG
 
  • Sad
Reactions: Fishman Dave
zoomed.com
hikariusa.com
aqaimports.com
Store