Live vs Prepared vs Pellet

[MonsterMinis]

I like Kraft mac and Cheese.. and at one point was told how healthy and vitamin enriched it is as well. Cheeseburgers use to not even be argued towards being "unhealthy".. My point being.. processed food in and of itself is NOT healthy for me, 'nore my fish. But unfortunately the reality of life is we do consume it, and so do our pets. But with that being said that does not mean It can not be apart of a balanced diet.

Pellets VS Live/frozen Will always be debated on this forum.. which is great.

Personally as a Hobbyist What works for me, is what ever mix I can tweek to give my fish a heathy body/mind/soul if you will. If my fish are swimming around "happily" and not exhibiting signs of depression, Are attempting to breed, Showing interest in their surroundings ect.. I am doing my job by them. No I do not X-ray my fish to check for fat around their heart or other organs, I do not draw blood regularly to check levels. I have a brother in bio getting his masters.. and we argue constantly about my feeding regime as he feels I should be feeding my fish pellets 100%... He hasn't kept a tank of his own personally since we where children. Hearing from the "experts" is great... But I'll take what a hobbyist who's spent their lives with these animals word over any "data" people want to try and shove down my throat, or my pets literally.

You guys can sit here and argue this until blue in the face or you can admit you already agree that balance is the key to any sucessful feeding regime be it straight pellet, or straight live/frozen, Or a combination of the 2. get your nutritions facts as accurate as you can, check the back of foods for nutrition anaylsis.. And do your best by your fish. If you see something isn't working, try and fix it. If something isn't broke.. Don't fix it..

 

[ballinouttacntrol]

Because in the wild a gars prey is typically gut loaded with micronutrients.


To state that one should only feed what is natural to the fish, makes little sense for most people that are keeping fish in a glass cage. In the wild fish don't eat frozen seafood, either. They don't have to be concerned with B1 deficiencies from Thiaminase issues, and those that consume prey in the wild are also consuming the stomach contents of those prey, which in many cases consist of numerous phytoplankton, zooplankton, etc-etc.


I think that if one was to keep a colony of tropheus moorii in captivity and offered them nothing more than algae, you'd soon find out that tropheus require far more than algae to keep them in optimum health. This is where the amino acids found in raw ingredients such as krill meal, herring meal, squid meal, shrimp meal, etc come into play. The same amino acids, and fatty acids, found in the insect nymphs and larvae, crustaceans, snails, mites, micro-organisms, and zooplankton, that this species consumes when grazing on the aufwuchs.

Their long digestive tracts are designed as such so that in nature they can break down the complex plant matter that they consume in massive quantity, which doesn't mean that they can't properly assimilate more easily digestible forms of protein.

The vast majority of fish are opportunistic feeders, and are all omnivorous to a certain extent. Fish classified as piscivores/carnivores don't just eat meat, any more than a herbivorous cichlid just consumes vegetable matter. There must be a reason why many of the larger piscivores found in the wild can produce enzymes (such as amylase) that are capable of breaking down carbohydrates, even if it's in limited quantity.


It's all about balance, and in some cases feeding what appears to be a more "natural" diet, may in actuality fall far short of some of the higher quality commercial foods on the market.

That makes sense. Thanks for sharing information without the vibe of "i'm superior then you" like alot of people on here try to do. Much appreciated

Edit:

The funny thing about this thread is EVERYBODY has said a variety is a way to go, the debate is just on if you were silly enough to lean one way, which way would you lean.

 

[RD.]

Thanks Alex, and yes, we call them journal articles as well.

Personally as a Hobbyist What works for me, is what ever mix I can tweek to give my fish a heathy body/mind/soul if you will. If my fish are swimming around "happily" and not exhibiting signs of depression, Are attempting to breed, Showing interest in their surroundings ect..

Monstermini ....... If I achieved that through feeding pellets, would I also be "doing my job by them"?


When people compare pellet feed with cheeseburgers, Mac & Cheese, etc, it only shows how truly ignorant they are on the subject of fish nutrition, or they are seeking a knee jerk reaction from the masses.
When I use the term high quality pellet feed, I'm not referring to a formula that consists of 40% carbohydrates, or a crude fat content of 20%, such as one might find in a low cost generic trout chow.


ballincourt ......... the message that I am attempting to get across is simple, "variety" can be achieved in a number of ways.

 

[MonsterMinis]

Monstermini ....... If I achieved that through feeding pellets, would I also be "doing my job by them"?


When people compare pellet feed with cheeseburgers, Mac & Cheese, etc, it only shows how truly ignorant they are on the subject of fish nutrition, or they are seeking a knee jerk reaction from the masses.
When I use the term high quality pellet feed, I'm not referring to a formula that consists of 40% carbohydrates, or a crude fat content of 20%, such as one might find in a low cost generic trout chow.

Of course, but you simply can't. Until we can design a pellet for every individual species of fish. The industries you talk about have specifically formulated mixes that they have tweeked over the years to feed. The Hobbyist does not get these benefits when purchasing their feeds from the LFS.

If you have honestly ever looked at a majority of staple fish foods on the market for the pet trade.. You'de find my comparison is accurate. It shows your ignorance on the Pet industry.. not the farming/comercial industry. I have no doubts you know what you are talking about.. But I don't think you truely grasp what the average Fishkeeper must deal with. Most of the feeds available are just that "trout chow" if you will, and not only is it simply more cost effective but easier to keep our fish healthy by using Live foods to suppliment, or even be a large part of a diet.

 

[xander]

Of course, but you simply can't. Until we can design a pellet for every individual species of fish. The industries you talk about have specifically formulated mixes that they have tweeked over the years to feed. The Hobbyist does not get these benefits when purchasing their feeds from the LFS.

If you have honestly ever looked at a majority of staple fish foods on the market for the pet trade.. You'de find my comparison is accurate. It shows your ignorance on the Pet industry.. not the farming/comercial industry. I have no doubts you know what you are talking about.. But I don't think you truely grasp what the average Fishkeeper must deal with. Most of the feeds available are just that "trout chow" if you will, and not only is it simply more cost effective but easier to keep our fish healthy by using Live foods to suppliment, or even be a large part of a diet.

aren't these "formulated mixes tweaked over the years" commercially available? brands such as hikiri & such seem to be pretty widely used and to good result. if i'm not reading wrongly, page 759 suggests that the "trout chow" avail to us are also used in hatcheries.

i'd again refer to peje's post on life food available in lfs with reGARds to yr suggestion that "using Live foods to suppliment, or even be a large part of a diet".

also, let's try and keep things civil in this forum...aggressive posting does nothing good for the poster or the community.

 

[RD.]

Of course, but you simply can't. Until we can design a pellet for every individual species of fish. The industries you talk about have specifically formulated mixes that they have tweeked over the years to feed. The Hobbyist does not get these benefits when purchasing their feeds from the LFS.

There is no need to design a specific formula for every single species of tropical fish on the planet. Regarding nutritional requirements, many species can easily be grouped together, and have been, very successfully, for many many years. You would be surprised at how much work has been performed in this area over the past few decades. And the hobbyist does glean these benefits when purchasing feed from the LFS, you simply need to know how to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. Granted, it's not easy, especially with all the misinformation bantered about, and & full page glossy advertisements full of money orientated propoganda within this industry. But it can be done.

If you have honestly ever looked at a majority of staple fish foods on the market for the pet trade.. You'de find my comparison is accurate. It shows your ignorance on the Pet industry.. not the farming/comercial industry. I have no doubts you know what you are talking about.. But I don't think you truely grasp what the average Fishkeeper must deal with. Most of the feeds available are just that "trout chow" if you will, and not only is it simply more cost effective but easier to keep our fish healthy by using Live foods to suppliment, or even be a large part of a diet.

LOL, while one of my mentors has been in the commercial tropical fish industry for the past 40 or so odd years, my expertise, if you can call it that (I don't), lies within the pet food industry, specifically tropical fish food. Read my comments (and other members) in the following past discussion & tell me how much I truly grasp.
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324394

Don't just skim it, actually read it all the way through. I'm quite certain that in the future you won't use the term ignorant to describe my knowledge on this subject.

You have to remember, I used the term high quality pellet, not "the majority" of fish foods on the market.

 

[RD.]

And just so there's no misunderstanding, I have absolutely no problem with those who choose to feed live food. My advice is simply to do so wisely, such as avoiding live feeders from your LFS, and supplementing those live feeders, be it through nutritional gut loading, or additional foods that are non live.

One my friends here in town (who's also an MFK sponsor) imports Asian arowana from Singapore. He feeds his fish live foods when required (such as superworms) feeds pellets to those who will eat them, and a variety of frozen food supplemented with vitamins & minerals to all of his aros. His fish are all extremely healthy, and always show great gains in growth.
The rest of his fish eat pellets readily, so that makes up the bulk portion of their diet, and they too are all extremely healthy, and always show great gains in growth.

I don't want anyone here getting the impression that I am anti-alternative feeding methods, because I'm not.

Below is a pic of a gar that he used to keep in his 550 gallon aro com tank.
It ate pellets like there was no tomorrow. lol

 

[xander]

one of the better (& more headache inducing) 10 pages i've read on the board..gd one though

 

[Lepisosteus platyrhincus]

there are a number of guys on here who work extensively with gars outside of the forum...i believe you've just met peje.

as far as pellet diets go, i believe quite a bit of research goes into identifying imporant characteristics of artificial diets & identifying strategies that help gar larvae accept an artificial diet. If i'm not wrong, several hatcheries also use an artificial diet to accelerate the growth of their gar from juvenile to commercial size

anyone want these articles?

for the most part we encourage a varied diet. i personally go with whole fish (from the market), market shrimp & pellets. again, it's pretty much never a good idea to compare fish to humans. that kind of logic almost never works.

although there's nothing wrong with trying to give ones fish the best (read, most beneficial) available diet, i agree that some people take it too far in, as you put it, "feel(ing) compelled to feed their fish "just like it would eat in the wild." ". especially when they gauge the quality of the feed by what it is (store bought feeder, store bought mice, -or as one member memorably fed - KFC chicken) instead of it's nurtitional value to the fish.

i'm greatly out of depth here especially with reGARds to the more "scientific' information, so feel free to point out any mistakes in whatever i've said. athough i'm hoping my reading of journal articles (do u guys call it that too?) will have paid off.

cheers,
alex

BWAHAHAHAHA good times good times

I miss that guy. he was toooo funny.

I will always stand by my statement that varied is best. even if its pellets, varied is the best way to go. Feeding one solitary type of pellet or food in general is not healthy. it will grow sure. it will live, sure. but it will do best on varied plain and simple


RD i think we were missing each others points. I wasnt saying pellets are bad, i was saying for best results it shouldnt be the solitary food source. I think that is what u were getting at but im not sure

 

[RD.]

No, that's not exactly what I was saying. I too believe in feeding a "varied" diet, but unlike you I know that in many cases all of the variety that a fish requires can be found in a single premium food. If the fish won't eat pellets, then obviously one has to change things up. But I'm not referring to finicky fish that are known for refusing commercial foods, I'm referring to fish that will readily accept a commercial food.

While I realize that some people tend to view their pet fish in an anthropomorphic manner, the reality is that if a food smells good, tastes good, and provides all of the necessary nutrients to thrive, they will learn to eat that food like each meal is their last, sometimes to the point that they will choose that food over anything else that is offered.

Look at this way, if I took everything that you ate over the course of a week, - meat, nuts, grains, vegetables, fruit, milk, etc, and left out all of the junk food, mixed it up into a great big bowl, and served that up to you on a daily basis - nutrient wise, what difference would it make if you ate each of those foods one at a time, or all at once, daily?

If I feed pellet foods, and my food of choice is IMHO head & shoulders above all other pellet feeds on the market, why would I mix up what I feel are inferior pellets in my fishes daily/weekly rations?

That defies logic.