Live vs Prepared vs Pellet

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i have converted all my cubans onto pellets in the following way.

step 1: get your fish used to feeding from a certain "feeding spot".

step 2: hold your hand over the spot till they gather round

step 3: drop some pellets in. usually floating ones work best. my cubans went nuts from the smell, but were unable to locate the source (the pellets) for several days.

step 4: while the fish are going nuts, repeatedly hold your hand over the feeding spot where the pellets are. draw attention to your hand and make your gars go near the pellets.

all 3 cubans picked up eating pellets in a matter of 2 weeks via this method:)

cheers,
alex
 
Well this has certainly turned into an educational thread. :)
 
Yes, I agree that if you feed dead fish to your other fish make sure it's not gutted or anything. The brain, skin and liver contains a lot of good stuff for your gar.
I feed my gar frozen herring that is used for mackerel fishing here. They are 2-3" long and frozen whole. They go nuts for them :)
 
ball - I've been supporting a small (at least in the grand scheme of things) family owned & operated USA based company for the past decade or so.
The owner has been raising & breeding fish on a large scale commercial basis for the past 40 or so odd years, and even at his present age of 71 yrs he still thinks outside of the box. I have a vested interest in this companies products so I try not to come across as promotional, or a salesman, and just stick to the facts. NLS

as i alluded to before, you can always cut a hole into a chunk of fish or shrimp and hide a pellet in there, at least this way your fish is getting some of the needed materials they are lacking in straight up frozen foods and especially live.

IMO that's probably the best way to go about feeding most gar species, certainly those fish that simply aren't interested in pellet food. In those cases shove some pellets into a whole smelt (or whatever) and feed that. Shazam, you have the best of both worlds.


Solomon - with regards to what Asian keepers feed, I'm guessing they have better access to whole live food (seafood, frogs, insects, etc), than most North Americans. Chances are they aren't feeding frozen fish that has been in a freezer for several weeks, or months. Also, many of these fish are kept in large pond settings, where a certain amount of nutrients are being passed along via the natural food chain.

Having said that, I'm not so sure that anyone in Asia is setting world records for longevity in any of these fish.

Discus breeders in Asia feed mostly beefheart mixes, and while this does produce major gains in growth, it's nowhere near what this species would consume in the wild, and overall is certainly not promoting longevity in the fish. Yet this is the nutritional path that millions of discus keepers world-wide still choose, because of the quick gains that they see. Not to derail this topic too much, but here's a prime example of the current science regarding discus diet in the wild.
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1679-62252008000400008

"This species feeds predominantly on algal periphyton, fine organic detritus, plant matter, and small aquatic invertebrates."

"The alimentary canal of Symphysodon is characterized by a poorly defined stomach and an elongate intestine, some 300 mm long and 3 mm wide (in a 180 mm SL specimen). This intestinal morphology is typical of a cichlid with a dominantly vegetarian, detritivorous, or omnivorous diet."

Show that to a breeder in Asia, and they will probably think that you have lost your mind. Heiko Bleher has examined hundreds of discus in the wild over the past 30 or so odd years, and his data matches that posted above.

My point simply being, there are many ways to "pump up" a fish in captivity, but fast gains in growth does not always equate to long term health in a fish, no matter the species. In fact, if you went to the arowana folder on this site, or to an Asian based aro site such as arofanatics, out of the hundreds/thousands of aro keepers that are members, I suspect that you would be hard pressed to find many aro keepers that have specimens that have been in their care for 10 years or more. Most of the fish shown or discussed are probably under 5 yrs of age. Ditto to the discus forums, discus over 5 years of age are few & far between, with most of them being dead before they even reach 5 yrs of age. Personally I don't find those kind of stats impressive, no matter how fast someone can pump up their fish.


IMO the key with supplementing fish such as gars (in captivity) with pellet feed, is the micro-nutrient supplementation that the fish receive. Vitamins & minerals that are seriously lacking, or often completely missing in the diet of captive raised fish that are fed nothing but frozen, or live. Those extra nutrients can & have been shown in numerous studies, involving numerous species of fish, to prevent illness, and even death, in fish under periods of stress. When a salmon farm is planning on moving fish in their pens they will amp up the vitamin C content in their feed to 1000 mg/kg-3,000 mg/kg, as they know this will greatly assist the fish when placed under this type of stress. In home aquaria I often see people feeding frozen foods that are in some cases completely lacking in this essential nutrient, or feeding pellets that
barely meet a fishes nutritional requirements under ideal conditions. (less than 200 mg/kg) - and the manufacturer actually brags about those numbers, as though that's supposed to be impressive. Here's an actual example, right off of the manufacturers website;
High in stabilized vitamin c to reduce stress and build immunity to disease.

The marketing genuis that wrote that may have been "high", but the actual numbers posted are IMO not impressive at all, pretty much what I would expect to see in any run of the mill generic farm feed that one could buy for less than $1 a pound. Woweee!

And that's just 1 example, of 1 essential nutrient.

Mimicking what takes place in nature is not as simple as some hobbyists would care to believe, and while I don't pretend to have all the answers, I think that ignoring the current science that's out there is not in the best interest of anyones fish.
 
malfunkshun;4365715; said:
Yes, I agree that if you feed dead fish to your other fish make sure it's not gutted or anything. The brain, skin and liver contains a lot of good stuff for your gar.
I feed my gar frozen herring that is used for mackerel fishing here. They are 2-3" long and frozen whole. They go nuts for them :)

I think that we are on the same page my friend. I, like you make a habit of feeding "the whole fish" to my pet fish. Not only is it more benneficial for my pet fish, it is more cost effective for me to keep them well fed and still be able to pay for electricity to keep up with some of their other biological requirements that I am responsible for as their owner.

I guess it is just sour grapes, but I get SO DOGON JEALOUS of MFK'rs that can feed their pets Halibut, Rockfish, Salmon, Flounder etc...

WTF is your average yearly income? I feel so PEE POOR compared to you rich folk I wanna puke!!! It is 100% alien thought process to me to feed stuff over $4.99/ pound to my fish. They are duffering now, as I have not been able to find market shrimp for under $5/ pound and therefore they get NONE.

I easily go through over 5 pounds is fresh fish for my pets weekly. I easily save at least two, and probably several thousand dollars per year "filleting" my fish myself rather then pay someone BIG BUCKs to fillet it for me and take care of throwing away all the nutrition so as to keep me from getting messY..

I AM SO JELEOUS darn it!!! I want to be able to afford my private worm excavator to feed cleaned cut worm to my babies. A sushi chef dedicated to perfect cuts just for my special finned friends! Heck while I'm at it I might as well be a little selfish and think of myself as well as my fish buddies: I also need a maid. A man with a maid is a man that gets:ROFL:
 
RD.;4364798; said:
Ok, that certainly explains a lot. I can tell you with 100% certainty that the ingredient list that you supplied is lacking some key substances, in so much as there is no binding agent listed. A formula such as that is impossible to create sans a binding agent, or agents. In order to end up with 65% protein you would have to be feeding pure fish meal, and even then depending on the grade of fish meal you might not even acheive that. If you showed that ingredient list to any major feed mill here in North America, and mentioned 65% protein, they would laugh in your face.

The problem with foods made in Thailand, China, etc, is that with many of these foreign made products there are simply no checks & balances in place. Does anyone here recall the melamine fiasco that took place a few years ago? That also affected fish food, and all of it originated from China.

This is exactly where reading between the lines comes into play.

It has now gotten to the point that countries such as Canada won't even allow these types of pet foods into the country (including fish food), unless the factories have been inspected & approved by the Canadian government. Some of the Asian based companies won't allow them access to perform a risk assessment, so they are banned from import.
IMO, it's about time.

FYI - even IF that food contained 65% protein, a food with that level of protein is not a great staple food for aros, cichlids, catfish, or any other species of tropical fish, including gars. Even at the fry or fingerling stage, none of those species require more than 50% protein, and certainly less at an adult or maintenance stage.

While a fish can excrete excess amino acids (protein) the problem lies in the fact that those excess amino acids have to first be deaminated by the liver, before they are excreted as waste, and all of that requires energy. Energy that could have & should have been used for growth, repair, and normal metabolic functions. Hence an excess of protein, can actually have a negative effect on growth.

Not to mention the fact that I can guarantee you that if you were to run that food through a lab, you would find that things would not appear as they do on the label. So while you may feel quite confident in this feed, I personally wouldn't expose my fish to it if you gave me a lifetime supply for free. Seriously.

Hai Feng is based in Taiwan, not China, and is another food that I would personally avoid, but again, that's just me. As an example;

Hai Feng's Premium Arowana pellet food. (Ever Nature)

Ingredients: Fish Protein, White Fish Meal, Wheat Germ, Dried Yeast, Wheat Flour, Soybean Meal, Soybean Protein, Shrimp Paste, Antarctic Shrimp, Protease, Organic Minerals

Analysis: Min,Crude Protein: 47% Min, Crude Fat 4% Min, Crude Ash: 15% Min, Crude Fiber: 4% Max, Sodium Chloride: 2%, Max, Moisture: 8%

The fish protein would most likely consist of hydrolyzed fish, basically a liquid emulsion, white fish meal is plant processing waste, consisting of heads, scales, and bones (hence the high ash content in the feed) , - and what do you have left as primary ingredients, wheat, yeast, more wheat, soybean meal and more soybean (protein). (soybean isolate or concentrate)


IMO there are FAR better pellet foods (and certainly many that are equal) right here in North America, no need to go searching for the holy grail of fish foods overseas. But hey, that's your call.


When it comes to arowanas, gars, arapaimas, etc, in Asia the vast majority of hobbyists feed their fish live and/or frozen food, not pellets, at least not to any great extent. If the person at your LFS is telling you otherwise, he's either shining you on to promote the food, or simply doesn't know what the hell he is talking about. He might be a nice person, and even have good intentions, but he's obviously out of touch with how most people in Asia raise large predatory species of fish.

I don't know of a single arowana farm in all of Asia that feeds pellets to grow out their fish, except maybe one, and while pellets on that farm (SABF) have been reported to be used by Mr. Lee Ah See, they are only used on a limited basis. The same thing applies to flowerhorn breeders, discus breeders, etc. They all feed for maximum growth, as the quicker the fish grow, the faster they can be placed for sale.

Of course many of these brands of food have become very popular with tropical fish hobbyists in Asia, because they are Asian made products. No different for all of the various other dry goods marketed & sold in Asia, be it medications, filters, heaters, etc. There are tons & tons of aquarium products made & sold in Asia that most people in North America would have never even heard of.


Caveat emptor

Wow, thanks for the info. RD. I think I'll stick to ingredients made by a reputable company that is based her in the united states. I'm still new in the monster fish world and the gar world so I would like to learn as much as possible and provide the best care possible for my monster LOL. Hmm, so for now I think I'll try some NLS brand pellets and whole herring at the local bait store. I've had him for only 6 days but already see him growing, he has exceeded 4 inches already and is close to 5 inches.
 
KillaFish;4367467; said:
Wow, thanks for the info. RD. I think I'll stick to ingredients made by a reputable company that is based her in the united states. I'm still new in the monster fish world and the gar world so I would like to learn as much as possible and provide the best care possible for my monster LOL. Hmm, so for now I think I'll try some NLS brand pellets and whole herring at the local bait store. I've had him for only 6 days but already see him growing, he has exceeded 4 inches already and is close to 5 inches.

keep in mind there are some major challenges with getting early stage YOY (young of the year) gars on to pellets, and if this is your first gar, you may be better off keeping up with the live food until it's a little bigger and more stable.

if you do want to experiment, i would suggest getting some frozen silversides or the like from your LFS (or other fish) and then put some pellets into the whole fish to feed to your gar. again, your gar is still quite small, so the pellet-loading technique may have to wait a bit. YOY gars need to get up to size pretty quickly to remain healthy, so i'd honestly wait until he's 6-8" long before experimenting too much.

either way, be sure to remove uneaten food within 15-20 min after presentation if he's not taking it as it will quickly degrade water quality (a factor which YOY gar are much more susceptible to than older juveniles and adults) --
--solomon
 
I concur with Solomon, I would wait until your gar is a lot larger before even attempting to feed pellets.
 
well it has been exactly one week as of now (2:44 am 8/11/10) since I've had him when he was 4 inches in length. He is approximately 4.5 inches now (just measured). 1/2 inch in 1 week is a pretty fast growth rate and I am hoping he keeps or accelerates. This boy has a voracious appetite for rosy reds and I expect him to grow quick. I'm thinking about throwing some pellets in there since if he won't take it, the rosy reds should.
 
KillaFish;4367978; said:
well it has been exactly one week as of now (2:44 am 8/11/10) since I've had him when he was 4 inches in length. He is approximately 4.5 inches now (just measured). 1/2 inch in 1 week is a pretty fast growth rate and I am hoping he keeps or accelerates. This boy has a voracious appetite for rosy reds and I expect him to grow quick. I'm thinking about throwing some pellets in there since if he won't take it, the rosy reds should.

don't count on it, and again, i wouldn't suggest trying it at this point. most likely the number of rosies you are putting in won't consume all of the pellets (if any) and it will quickly degrade the water quality. i've tried this before in some experimental tanks and it's surprising how many feeder types (particularly store-bought rosies) ignore or don't completely consume pellets, etc...they end up just rotting (the wild-caught feeders, however, did usually have a higher consumption rate).

seriously, i would just wait until the fish is 6-8"...otherwise you will have to really worry about ammonia spikes killing your fish before he lives to get that big.--
--solomon
 
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