monitor idea

[varanio]

I do a lot of baiting online. Just because they have to worry about it in the wild, it doesn't means it have to carry on in captivity if it does not interfere with their health. I say that because a lot, if not all, varanids do need diggable substrate to stay healthy. Although some of their main habitats are more terrestrial, animals do seem to be more lax if they have the option to see eye to eye or go above the keeper's head. That's my take on it.

Baiting? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha what exactly are you baiting? The only one with a hook in their mouth here is you, I frankly dont understand your logic behind "why if they dont do it in the wild doesnt mean they have to carry it on in captivity" Thats an injustice to these animals, these animals are not meant to be domesticated.

You later then go on to say that they need diggable substrate to stay healthy. Isnt that part of what they do in the wild? So why should one behavior be forced away from their everyday life and not the other? Isnt that unfair to the animal, and you the keeper ? You only get to see the glass half full? How are you to fully understand why they do certain things they do?

Have you attempted to keep any varanid species in any of the two different methods? Seems as if youre going by what others state, and not really on your own experiences. I have raised and kept in both types and find that the trough is better for terrestrial animals having them look up as its a natural behavior, and having the arboreal enclosures for arboreal species where they are more accustomed to looking down, I try to mimic their enviornments to make sure they can display as many naturalistic behaviors as possible. This way its not so bad that theyre in a box for observation and captive understanding of behaviors.

These are generalities of course, we can have dialogue about semi aquatic arboreal and fossorial species if youd like, and how they would benefit from different types of enclosures. It just seems to me that people dont do enough for their animals in ways to understand their enviornments and needs, but rather just instill a one path mentality, this is the way its gonna be and thats the way it is; rather than i should research this enviornment and design the cage according to that.

Mating out in the open and the pic is taken from above? Look at the terrified looks on their faces as they go about their business ignoring me completely. They should be ashamed of themselves for going away from the norm.

<------- thats an arow pointing you toward the avatar

 

[Kioka]

Baiting? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha what exactly are you baiting? The only one with a hook in their mouth here is you, I frankly dont understand your logic behind "why if they dont do it in the wild doesnt mean they have to carry it on in captivity" Thats an injustice to these animals, these animals are not meant to be domesticated.

Um, where the hell did I say that? I just said that minimizing stress is the (or should be) the am of every herpetoculturist on this planet. By baiting, I means I got you to confess that keeping them where they can see you can be less stressful for the animal.

You later then go on to say that they need diggable substrate to stay healthy. Isnt that part of what they do in the wild? So why should one behavior be forced away from their everyday life and not the other? Isnt that unfair to the animal, and you the keeper ? You only get to see the glass half full? How are you to fully understand why they do certain things they do?

Are varanids the type of reptiles that don't adapt well or benefit from the utilitarian method that seemingly every gecko, snake or agamid breeder or keeper use?

Have you attempted to keep any varanid species in any of the two different methods? Seems as if youre going by what others state, and not really on your own experiences. I have raised and kept in both types and find that the trough is better for terrestrial animals having them look up as its a natural behavior, and having the arboreal enclosures for arboreal species where they are more accustomed to looking down, I try to mimic their enviornments to make sure they can display as many naturalistic behaviors as possible. This way its not so bad that theyre in a box for observation and captive understanding of behaviors.

No, but I do plan to keep small monitors in a 4'x8'x8' (or 10' if the ceiling allows for it) cage with a 2'-3' deep substrate with UV. I am in the process of finding a good soil that can hold tunnels. That way the animal can have a choice of being up top, being at midlevel, staying on the ground or being underground. Seriously, we are taking an animal that would normally have hundreds of hectares of hunting territory with the highest recorded repitilean metabolism that even rival birds and small mammals with a reptuation for being the most intelligent of all the ectothermic animals into a small box only to be fed periodically at their doorstep.

I am following the advices of a few people like Sam Sweet, crocdoc and a local named Warren along with a few German keepers.

Am I overdoing it? Maybe from a North American minimalist utilitarian perception, but you know Europeans are having more success propagating Indo-Pacific and African varanids, which are clades that very few American hobbyists have success with.

 

[varanio]

Kioka;1477797;]Um, where the hell did I say that? I just said that minimizing stress is the (or should be) the am of every herpetoculturist on this planet. By baiting, I means I got you to confess that keeping them where they can see you can be less stressful for the animal.

Confessing and agreeing are two different things here. I dont make these things up, they are personal observations.

Are varanids the type of reptiles that don't adapt well or benefit from the utilitarian method that seemingly every gecko, snake or agamid breeder or keeper use?

Utalitarian hmmmm so whats this useful way of keeping them then? What you mentioned before? Those setups now all of a sudden apply to geckos and agamids? Hardly...........
No, but I do plan to keep small monitors in a 4'x8'x8' (or 10' if the ceiling allows for it) cage with a 2'-3' deep substrate with UV. I am in the process of finding a good soil that can hold tunnels. That way the animal can have a choice of being up top, being at midlevel, staying on the ground or being underground. Seriously, we are taking an animal that would normally have hundreds of hectares of hunting territory with the highest recorded repitilean metabolism that even rival birds and small mammals with a reptuation for being the most intelligent of all the ectothermic animals into a small box only to be fed periodically at their doorstep.

From this I really got nothing actually my head started spinning because I didnt know what the point was you were trying to make.

I am following the advices of a few people like Sam Sweet, crocdoc and a local named Warren along with a few German keepers.

These names are very revelant in the herping community and I admire them both quite a bit, I have seen Sam's setups and I correspond with him from time to time, Dave (croc doc ) as well. What you fail to see is that I never disagreed with you as to what was the right or wrong way of keeping them which enclosure was right or wrong. I am arguing the fact that you for some preconceived reason think that (im gonna keep my eyes on the sky behavior) is an adaptation that is formulated by these animals in captivity and its not inherent in wild animals.
American minimalist utalitarian hu? So now we are utalitarians, and up above the europeans are utalitarians with their gecko and agamid breeding? Your throwing large words around like your in a spelling bee, just like your tackling a complex subject without any hands on experience in the matter, your baiting a fish thats too big for your line, go grab a 5lb test and bait for some guppies. Thats where you belong, quit trying to fill shoes you cant fit by throwing well respected peoples names on here and claiming their long hard work as yours.

Am I overdoing it? Maybe from a North American minimalist utilitarian perception, but you know Europeans are having more success propagating Indo-Pacific and African varanids, which are clades that very few American hobbyists have success with.

By the way buddy Europeans arent the only one breeding them, check the classifieds see whos breeding what itll be a nice eye opener for you.

 

[Kioka]

What I means is the old newspaper and paper towel setup with a hide or two and a possible basking lamp or heat pad. Is that not what the standard utilitarian method is? Trying to keep thing sterilize as possible? Varanids just simply don't benefit from being kept on paper towel or newspaper with a couple of hides thrown in.

With Sam, Dave (crocdoc), et cetera: you said I was going by what other people state. or experienced. I never said you were wrong. I correspond with them by e-mails, and I just go by their suggestions and ideology. Where did I even claim their works as mine?

Read it at face value, don't try to read between the line. With the second paragraph, I was just legitimizing my rationale behind the design for big cage for a terrestrial monitor.

God you are reading into this too much.

Edit: I never said it was unnatural, just saying it is weird. Since when weird is akin to unnatural? I think pancake tortoises' shells are weird; I think Indigo's waste spraying are weird. Are they unnatural? No. However I still don't see the point in using the method in the second post suggested unless you are a breeder; if you are just a simple hobbyist, then why keep them that way?

And I am still looking for captive-bred Mangrove Monitors and Savannahs...

 

[Gourami Swami]

guys, stop bickering. Keep this civil. Perhaps even break thie last page or so into a new topic, like davo did with the "ethics of keeping animals/petco ball pythons" thread.

 

[large_cichlids]

WHY CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?

 

[davo]

guys, stop bickering. Keep this civil. Perhaps even break thie last page or so into a new topic, like davo did with the "ethics of keeping animals/petco ball pythons" thread.

nah no need unless the OP wants to... it's all about using the troughs as caging like he intends to, so...

 

[varanio]

What I means is the old newspaper and paper towel setup with a hide or two and a possible basking lamp or heat pad. Is that not what the standard utilitarian method is? Trying to keep thing sterilize as possible? Varanids just simply don't benefit from being kept on paper towel or newspaper with a couple of hides thrown in.

With Sam, Dave (crocdoc), et cetera: you said I was going by what other people state. or experienced. I never said you were wrong. Where did I even claim their works as mine?

Read it at face value, don't try to read between the line. With the second paragraph, I was just legitimizing my rationale behind the design for big cage for a terrestrial monitor.

God you are reading into this too much.

How is talking about utalitarianism and using it against americans not a reason to read into it so much? Youre throwing these farces around and using them as typical stereotype that every hobbyist is a utalitarian. I will read into it because when you speak in generalities you are speaking of me. And from my experience and what I have contributed to this forum and others Id think youd have a little more common sense and choose your words more carefully when youd engage in dialogue with me.

I applaud your rationale, and thats really everyones rationale when they start, unfortunatley it doesnt become a reality for most for XYZ reasons.

In the earlier parts of this thread you used the information given to you by others and used it as your own by taking ownership of comments they made. I know that because I have spoken to Sam and Dave and we talk about it everytime we speak. I am not going to go back and knit pick it as im not the one who stated them, so its not my responsibility to duplicate it for you to see. Sam is an american by the way he must be a utalitarian, ill make sure he knows that since you listen to his advice all so much!

The whole paper towel analogy simply doesnt apply to this dialogue and you know it, dont use the agamid and gecko examples as a scapegoat for your lack of research on the subject we are talking about sufisticated ways to keep our animals where they can breed and fulfill life events and then you bring this rubbish in as a justification? Thats just not proper debate tactics.

I am not mad at you Kioka, I am just concerned about your way of thinking, as to how you think one way is better than any other way, if the animal is breeding in front of us and its a look above enclosure, and the eggs hatch and they are fulfilling life events and displaying proper behaviors why is this bad? An eye level enclosure could be just as effective or damning for them as well, you can get no eggs no breeding no behaviors, they could hide all day and never come and then what? How would you measure the success of that cage?

I underlined the whole topic of my reasoning and the disagreement, but you opened a whole other can of worms with some of your comments pal.

 

[varanio]

"Alright, then how come varanids, or most lizards, in European-style cages don't have that same behaviour?"

The formulation of this sentence suggests that its unnatural because european cage style monitor keepers arent seeing these behaviors. The behavior is forced out by taking a blank white wall and throwing it at them to stare at, I wouldnt be worried either about the "terrors from above", but youre taking a natural behavior away from them, which is all in all the focal point of the discussion which got diverged by other things said, so to spin this back on topic somewhat. I hope you understood the above.

 

[Kioka]

Not a problem. I am way too lost in the topic to even try and fix what I said and what I originally meant, but it just kept getting worse and worse. I don't see what is wrong with my statements, yet I get the feeling people get a different message out of them.

I didn't means to offend anyone, and usually my choice of words are taken at face value in my mind, and I don't take implied statements and definitions into consideration. I let my scientific reading comprehension get in the way of real world reading comprehension.

In hindsight, I see how my posts could be read the way they were read, and I apologize for that.

Edit: Hope you read this edit. This is why I hate discussing online, even on MSN. One needs to consider every single possible way a person may interpret a statement when dealing with posts online, and hope the message get across. At least in real life, one can explain properly and correcting oneself before the discussion turn into a big mess.