Most important things to look at when purchasing a filter?

[tiger15]

I don't know how you can say that there is zero risk for flooding with a properly designed sump. In my experience, a HOB has less chance of causing a flood than a sump or canister filter.

Me neither!

HOBs have no external plumbing, and so there is no chance of flooding. The only exception is Aquaclear because of a design flaw that you have to unscrew the motor to clean the impeller, and over time the O ring will wear out and leak the same way all canisters do. All HOBs except Aquaclear have sealed motor to the impeller well that never have to be unscrewed.

You need a lot of brain to set up a wet and dry to make it work and prevent flooding, including proper sizing of the sump, proper placement of the intakes and returns, proper set up of the overlfow box . . . etc. Even with proper set up, an overflow box set up is vulnerable to breaking siphon or detachment of the hose by kids and pets that leads to flooding.

Setting up a canister is less complicated, but only relative to wet and dry. There are O rings and clamps that need to tighten up and put back right, or else you risk turning it into a fountain. Yes, it's a great idea to place a canister inside a plastic container to contain leak. But why should I waste cabinet space to put a container within a container.

A no brainer can set up a HOB and make it work and safe from flooding.

 

[Jc1119]

Me neither!

HOBs have no external plumbing, and so there is no chance of flooding. The only exception is Aquaclear because of a design flaw that you have to unscrew the motor to clean the impeller, and over time the O ring will wear out and leak the same way all canisters do. All HOBs except Aquaclear have sealed motor to the impeller well that never have to be unscrewed.

You need a lot of brain to set up a wet and dry to make it work and prevent flooding, including proper sizing of the sump, proper placement of the intakes and returns, proper set up of the overlfow box . . . etc. Even with proper set up, an overflow box set up is vulnerable to breaking siphon or detachment of the hose by kids and pets that leads to flooding.

Setting up a canister is less complicated, but only relative to wet and dry. There are O rings and clamps that need to tighten up and put back right, or else you risk turning it into a fountain. Yes, it's a great idea to place a canister inside a plastic container to contain leak. But why should I waste cabinet space to put a container within a container.

A no brainer can set up a HOB and make it work and safe from flooding.

True, but try not changing the filter pads in a HOB and see where the water goes. Up and over the back of the filter.

And I stand by my statement in regards to a sump. I never said it was easy and never said it didn't take time to design a flood proof system but unless my kids and dogs take the outer skin off my stand, lift the pumps up and over the tank walls, there is nothing to detach because all plumbing is contained in the overflows or inside a metal stand surrounded by acrylic skin. Check out the build on my 300 and you can see for yourself. It does not lose siphon because the boxes are built into the tank itself( No external boxes for this fish keeper) and unless you have a sawsall, channel locks and a blow torch, it ain't coming apart.

My wife forgets to change the socks what happens? The water overflows into the sump. My canisters become clogged what happens? Filter flow slows to a halt. My filter pads become clogged on my HOB what happens. Water on the floor.....

We can agree to disagree here, but in my 4 decades of fish keeping I've only had 2 floods. Once when I forgot I was doing a water change while on the phone lol and once when my wife spaced and forgot to clean the pads for 2 weeks. No external plumbing has nothing to do with the fact that, by design, a clogged HOB has only one place for the water to go.

Sorry to derail... Just trying to clarify.


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[Bderick67]

Yea thats what im talking about. I totally recommend xp3 and maybe even xp2. I even have an xp3 myself, BUT the xp4 is very poorly designed.

The only design flaw with the XP4 is it has pretty much the same ACTUAL flow as the XP3 190gph as compared to 187gph for the XP3. The extra basket you get is not worth the extra cost.

 

[brich999]

Canisters don't have head unless you're doing something weird with them.

Good point thanks for the correction, I knew this but goes to show how much time I spend thinking about canisters compared to sumps. My bad. Still lose a lot of flow when loaded with media but head isn't a factor. My point was ehiem gph are loaded up with their media and tested, vs other companies slightly optimistic gph ratings and numbers for just the pump or for an empty filter

 

[mr.bigglesworth]

The only design flaw with the XP4 is it has pretty much the same ACTUAL flow as the XP3 190gph as compared to 187gph for the XP3. The extra basket you get is not worth the extra cost.

^+1 exactly

 

[tiger15]

True, but try not changing the filter pads in a HOB and see where the water goes. Up and over the back of the filter.

I have no idea how your Emperor could leak from the back. All HOBs are designed in such a way that when the filter pad is clogging, the flow will bypass in the front around the intake pipe which is the lowest point of the box. In order to make it leak in the back, you either have to tilt the box backward in a strong angle, or you have something blocking the bypass area.

The beauty of HOBs is simplicity in design, so even an 8 year old kid knows how to set them up and run. But Emperor doesn't fit the norm. It has a sophisticated douple pump and spray bar design to operate the biowheel, which IMO are unneeded add-ons so Marineland can charge triple the price for its high end HOBs. I like Marineland's product and owns a dozen of its low end Penquin HOBs, but I won't waste money on its high end Emperor with gimmick add-ons. I don't even believe in the necessity of biowheel and run all my Penquins without the wheels as they just compete flow energy that would otherwise move the water.

Some people believe that the more sophisticated the equipment, the better it must be. I avoid complication as the more complicated the design, the more things can go wrong. This is why I avoid complicated canister and wet and dry and prefer simple HOBs. BTW, I am not an 8 year old kid but a practicing hydraulic engineer and a fish hobbyist for over three decades.

 

[joe jaskot]

^ Not a gimmick, biowheels do work. They were originally used in treating waste in sewage treatment facilities.

 

[tiger15]

^ Not a gimmick, biowheels do work. They were originally used in treating waste in sewage treatment facilities.

I didn't say it won't work, it's just not needed. You can achieve all the biological filtration you need in a fresh water tank with good water movement. This is why you can get by with sponge filters only. But that is not enough for a salt water tank because the bilogical activities are much slower. I would run the biowheel in a salt water set up as any extra help is helpful. However, I will most likely run a wet and dry filter as most salt water tanks do to maximize biological filtration.

 

[Jc1119]

I have no idea how your Emperor could leak from the back. All HOBs are designed in such a way that when the filter pad is clogging, the flow will bypass in the front around the intake pipe which is the lowest point of the box. In order to make it leak in the back, you either have to tilt the box backward in a strong angle, or you have something blocking the bypass area.

The beauty of HOBs is simplicity in design, so even an 8 year old kid knows how to set them up and run. But Emperor doesn't fit the norm. It has a sophisticated douple pump and spray bar design to operate the biowheel, which IMO are unneeded add-ons so Marineland can charge triple the price for its high end HOBs. I like Marineland's product and owns a dozen of its low end Penquin HOBs, but I won't waste money on its high end Emperor with gimmick add-ons. I don't even believe in the necessity of biowheel and run all my Penquins without the wheels as they just compete flow energy that would otherwise move the water.

Some people believe that the more sophisticated the equipment, the better it must be. I avoid complication as the more complicated the design, the more things can go wrong. This is why I avoid complicated canister and wet and dry and prefer simple HOBs. BTW, I am not an 8 year old kid but a practicing hydraulic engineer and a fish hobbyist for over three decades.

But you contradict yourself a bit by saying all HOBs are designed a certain way , but the Emperor doesn't fit the norm, and then that you've only owned Penguins and not Emperors because you won't waste money on Emperors gimmicky add ons? Which means you have no actual hands on experience with this filter itself.......

Look, I'll step back just a bit here. I'm only commenting on a filter I own. Not one I've heard about or assume things about. The filter design is not the culprit. Operator error is the culprit here. My wife forgot and we paid the price. Life happens. People forget. The Emperor is a decent filter and has been in service in my house for almost 10 years now. I can't blame Marineland for so called gimmicky design flaws when it was user error that caused the small flood on our 60 gallon tank.

I travel for a living.... Alot. So my wife takes care of the tanks when I'm gone, but she is not a hobbyist so I design my systems to be as user friendly, flood proof and quiet as humanly possible for them as much as me. Moving 2500 gph in the main hallway of your house "quietly" is not an easy task. If I had the space I suppose your solution would be to line up 5 Ac110's(which Im using here because they move 500gph with no 'gimmicky" parts) side by side but with a 300 gallon Eurobraced acrylic tank designed to sit flush against the wall, it's just not practical from a space or sound pov. The dual Herbie design moves a ton of water quietly with little chance of flooding. I'm an ex saltwater guy, so these type of systems, to me, are not overly complicated at the end of the day. I am not a hydraluic engineer. I am a guitarist with lousy math skills .Sumps may seem complicated to someone who's never set one up, and I totally understand that point. But this system in particular had a few more things to consider than just filtration. Space, water volume and silent operation where key, and being flood proof is part of the design as well.

I agree that by design HOBs are a great option for those who need great filtration with no concern over space behind the aquarium, or staring at an immovable intake tube . I've owned 5 over the years still have my 2 running in the garage with bio wheels attached at the only source of bio besides the tank and substrate itself. I had a small flood and your not understanding how on a filter you've never owned does not change the fact that it did.

I'll put 5 ac110's up against my sump and you'll find my sump moves the same amount of water, adds about 60 gallons of volume to the system, has 10x the room for bio, heaters and fish, (which I have used from time to time for qt) is quieter and uses no space behind my tank. All for about $500..... Which I would have to give the edge to the ac's here because 5 of those would be about $400 ......and my sump has 2 pumps as opposed to 5 and 1 container as opposed to 5, so to move this amount of water, the HOB route is actually alot more complicated..... And I'd have to stare at 5 intake tubes which would be the worst lol

Enjoy your HOBs and I'll enjoy my sump.....


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[tiger15]

HOBs are not for everyone because they are noisy and ugly. If you want a silent system with nothing sticking out off the back, you go with canister filters. If you want the most efficient mechanical, biological and chemical fitration, you go with wet and dry because it has the largest filter media volume and unlimited options of what you can put into it. This is why wet and dry are standard for saltwater because it needs as much biological/chemical filtration help as it can get, and saltwater is expensive and tedious to replace.

I have never owned and will never want to own an Emperor after I reviewed its complicated engineering design. The biowheel and spray bar are gimmick in a sense that it is not needed for a freshwater tank and unlikely to be adeqate as a stand alone filter for a saltwater tank.