My Ball Python

[synapse989]

I love how the insults flow so quickly on sites like this.. assumptions are made and kapow.. derailed thread and someone eventually gets banned.

1. my snake is certified wild caught by the wild caught snake certification people. ..I know the guy at the pet store that got from an importer not the "local breeder". good enough for me.

2. yep ..you're right.. there's a chance the snake could get bitten. say what you like, but I'm making the cage as natural as I can.. I hardly ever see the snake unless I'm around the tank at night.. it's usually in its hide during the day. hence, as I said before.. when is a snake going to take a frozen or dead anything in nature? ..nobody's touched this one so far..

3. Deciding to be a responsible pet owner is one thing, but taking it to any kind of extreme is an individual choice. So far, everything I've heard is personal opinion, and frankly I don't think any of you give your animals credit for being what they are.. predators. they don't want to be fed.. they want to hunt. I was watching my snake hunt down a mouse tonight... ..and this furthers my belief that having a snake in a large tank a good thing. I was told by someone that it was going to stress my snake out and she wasn't going to eat and that she'd just hide all the time..

100% wrong. 100% the opposite of what's going on.

bottomline is that I'm keeping a snake, but I'm letting the snake be a snake, not just some pet.

..and this of course is just my inexperienced, newbie, dense opinion.. ..and at the moment I'm pretty much convinced that it's going to die when it's old and wrinkly..

 

[walls]

I did not insult you in any way, you questioned my experience and my sources. I am now questioning yours, I would like to know where you read that it is OK or preferable to feed live over pre-killed rodents.
I can quote several authors from a stack of REPTILES mags, a few POST 1995 books, and MANY keepers and breeders from different sites. Heck I can just give you links if you would like to see just how bad a rodent can damage a snake.

I took offense when you questioned my experience and started to state what you believe to be "proper" keeping. I did NOT call you a "newb" but I am calling you out on YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. Because I remember a thread a couple of weeks ago where a certain keeper wasnt even sure what snake crap looked like.

 

[dougefresh]

Wow guys didn't really mean to spark up that forest fire.......Let's just take a so no one gets offended or insulted, it's a good debate but let's keep it cool so the thread doesn't get closed or worse someone gets banned.........

 

[Ophiuchus]

1. my snake is certified wild caught by the wild caught snake certification people. ..I know the guy at the pet store that got from an importer not the "local breeder". good enough for me.

Not necessarily questioning the WC thing, but why would you get a WC snake when CB ones are so available?

when is a snake going to take a frozen or dead anything in nature? ..nobody's touched this one so far..

Perhaps not frozen, but there has been evidence that some snakes eat carrion. I know water snakes and garters will. Whether or not BPs will in the wild hasn't been proven either way.

they don't want to be fed.. they want to hunt.

First of all, you're anthropomorphizing your snake. Snakes can't "want" anything. They react totally on instinct. Yours hunts down the mouse because thats what Nature has programmed it to do when a prey item is in the vincinity whne its hungry. The snake cannot "enjoy" the thrill of the hunt no more than it can become "bummed" at eating something dead.

Secondly, by your logic, should zoos start feeding their lions and tigers live deer and gazelles?

 

[elevatethis]

Ophiucus, I'll agree to disagree with you on the whole f/t thing, if you've been around the hobby as long as you claim to have been, you'll at least know that this is a debate that has never been settled and probably never will.

You did mention that you experienced bites by feeding in a separate feeding area. For one, if you run the logic through, you'll find that doing this is unnecessary. If you attempt to make an argument that feeding in a separate box decreases the chance of your snake being aggressive to you inside of its own enclosure, you can make an equally convincing argument that feeding in a separate enclosure can cause them to expect to be fed every time they were removed from their enclosure, such as for handling sessions...obviously not a good thing. The point is that neither argument does in fact have those consequences, so there's other issues to take into consideration.

For one, specifically for ball pythons, they are secretive animals that do in fact prefer to feed from the safety and comfort of their own enclosure. Removing a snake from its enclosure, placing it in a feeding box places the snake outside of its element, and when fed live food, can cause mishaps - including denying food outright and of course, rodent bites should they decide to attempt to eat it.

First of all, you're anthropomorphizing your snake. Snakes can't "want" anything. They react totally on instinct. Yours hunts down the mouse because thats what Nature has programmed it to do when a prey item is in the vincinity whne its hungry. The snake cannot "enjoy" the thrill of the hunt no more than it can become "bummed" at eating something dead.

Secondly, by your logic, should zoos start feeding their lions and tigers live deer and gazelles?

I agree 100% with the first part...too many new keepers do that.

To answer the second part, I think it was a zoo in FL, maybe tampa (?), that wasn't exactly feeding large cats live deer, but were attaching the carcasses to automated ziplines that forced the cats to exhibit at least some degree of "natural" hunting behavior, and were finding that to have positive psychological effects on them. Can't remember the specifics of how they were measuring that, but thought I'd throw that out for discussion anyway.

I'm not sure how much that would apply to snakes, given that large cats are at least cognitively much more complicated, but its definitely food for thought.

 

[Ophiuchus]

Ophiucus, I'll agree to disagree with you on the whole f/t thing, if you've been around the hobby as long as you claim to have been, you'll at least know that this is a debate that has never been settled and probably never will.

Indeed. This thread is clear testament of that. But this isn't like arguing about the diets of savannah monitors or whether or not crested geckos need UV. Its like you guys are trying to say that live feedings are safer and healthier than F/T. I agree it has its advantages for some species, but you can't argue about a snake's "enjoyment" factor (because it has none) and you can't argue that a dead mouse is more dangerous than a live one.

If you attempt to make an argument that feeding in a separate box decreases the chance of your snake being aggressive to you inside of its own enclosure, you can make an equally convincing argument that feeding in a separate enclosure can cause them to expect to be fed every time they were removed from their enclosure, such as for handling sessions...obviously not a good thing. The point is that neither argument does in fact have those consequences, so there's other issues to take into consideration.

Actually, many people have observed increased aggression when feeding the snake inside its enclosure, which is one reason feeding outside the cage was first suggested. I can't speak for everyone, but I've never had a snake become aggressive when handled as a direct result of being fed out of its cage; only when they were placed inside their respective feeding area/container. I can handle my BP all day long without worry, but as soon as he goes into his blue cat kennel, that's when his behavior switches to feed mode. And any aggressive snakes I've encountered were aggressive regardless of their feeding history, whether it was live or f/t, inside or outside the cage.

For one, specifically for ball pythons, they are secretive animals that do in fact prefer to feed from the safety and comfort of their own enclosure. Removing a snake from its enclosure, placing it in a feeding box places the snake outside of its element, and when fed live food, can cause mishaps - including denying food outright and of course, rodent bites should they decide to attempt to eat it.

Maybe true for BPs but it doesn't account for other species in which Ive observed rodent bites (which have included boas, ratsnakes, hognose snakes, and kings). Like I said before, the majority of cases occurred not because of reluctant/fearful snakes, but because they simply struck the prey at the wrong angle.

I'm not sure how much that would apply to snakes, given that large cats are at least cognitively much more complicated, but its definitely food for thought.

"Food for thought"...no pun intended, I presume?

 

[elevatethis]

Indeed. This thread is clear testament of that. But this isn't like arguing about the diets of savannah monitors or whether or not crested geckos need UV. Its like you guys are trying to say that live feedings are safer and healthier than F/T. I agree it has its advantages for some species, but you can't argue about a snake's "enjoyment" factor (because it has none) and you can't argue that a dead mouse is more dangerous than a live one.

Its obvious that feeding f/t is absolutely 100% safer than live...dead rodents don't bite and I'm not debating that...but I was arguing that live feeding CAN be safe with an acceptable level of risk under the right conditions. If an inexperienced keeper doesn't feel that they can provide these conditions, they should opt for the safer route of f/t. I think we both can at least agree on that point.

Actually, many people have observed increased aggression when feeding the snake inside its enclosure, which is one reason feeding outside the cage was first suggested. I can't speak for everyone, but I've never had a snake become aggressive when handled as a direct result of being fed out of its cage; only when they were placed inside their respective feeding area/container. I can handle my BP all day long without worry, but as soon as he goes into his blue cat kennel, that's when his behavior switches to feed mode. And any aggressive snakes I've encountered were aggressive regardless of their feeding history, whether it was live or f/t, inside or outside the cage.

I can testify that not a single one of my ball pythons are aggressive towards me during handling or cage maintenance. They know what food is, when its feeding time, and when its not. On feeding day, I scent the room with the rodents (nothing more than leaving the rodents in their holding bin near the snake racks for about an hour) during which time the snakes effectively "wake up" and are waiting at the front of their tubs for the rat to be dropped in - many times the rat barely hits the floor of the tub before the snake grabs it. I don't handle them for 24 hours prior or post-feeding and this is the 'conditioning' that I was talking about earlier. Doing this set routine regularly week after week, they seem to be very "clued in" to what's going on.

Maybe true for BPs but it doesn't account for other species in which Ive observed rodent bites (which have included boas, ratsnakes, hognose snakes, and kings). Like I said before, the majority of cases occurred not because of reluctant/fearful snakes, but because they simply struck the prey at the wrong angle.

Again, keep in mind my focus is on live feeding of ball pythons.

 

[walls]

Wow guys didn't really mean to spark up that forest fire.......Let's just take a so no one gets offended or insulted, it's a good debate but let's keep it cool so the thread doesn't get closed or worse someone gets banned.........

Maybe I just dont let things bother me much but I dont see anywhere in this thread where anything is out of control. Yes its a "heated" debate but why would anyone be banned??? Maybe I am missing something??

For me this is a cut and dry discussion. I have had a snake get bitten and then die from an infection. So once again IN MY OPINION feeding pre-killed is SAFER. And FOR ME it is also cheaper and less time consuming.
If someone wants to feed thier pets live I am OK with that. But telling me its just as safe as pre-killed or "better" for the snake in some way is just flat out wrong IN MY OPINION. And if someone thinks otherwise than I would like to see the proof of how it is just as safe and "better" for the snake.

 

[synapse989]

Naw, man...you just don't get it. All the cool kids are doing it. Who cares if your pet might get hurt...I mean, the only reason to have a snake is for your own personal entertainment, right?

Sheesh...people can be so dense sometimes.

there's the insult.

as for the assumption... I'll let walls figure it out.

And yes.. there's the magic word... "instinct" ...that's what i loosely translated to "want"

...I think some people in here might need another hobby...

 

[synapse989]

For one, specifically for ball pythons, they are secretive animals that do in fact prefer to feed from the safety and comfort of their own enclosure. Removing a snake from its enclosure, placing it in a feeding box places the snake outside of its element, and when fed live food, can cause mishaps - including denying food outright and of course, rodent bites should they decide to attempt to eat it.

seen this.. I took someone's advice about not feeding in the tank and all she did was murder the mouse.