Just for the record, I've been selling and caring for snakes for years, and I always reccomend frozen food, and always reccomend feeding your snakes outside of their enclosures. I certainly have seen a significant difference in a snakes behavior on account of this. And I certainly have seen bites on snakes from rodents that had terrible consequences. I also think that in the case of ball pythons which can be "picky" eaters, a traumatic experience like that can be devastating. And we have to be careful to make things in our enclosure as "natural" as possible, because our snakes are no longer in nature, we are now caring for them, and that changes alot. I think the percentage of snakes in the wild that die "old and wrinkly" are very slim.
My Ball Python
- Thread starter dougefresh
- Start date
synapse989;785309; said:there's the insult.
as for the assumption... I'll let walls figure it out.
And yes.. there's the magic word... "instinct" ...that's what i loosely translated to "want"
...I think some people in here might need another hobby...
OK I took that post with a grain of salt. But I can see where it was not needed. I would apologize but it wasnt me.
But I would still like to see your PROOF on this subject. I can show plently of rodent injury pics if you need to see them.
This is what CAN happen when feeding live. I am not saying that it WILL but here is proof that it CAN. Again I would like proof that it will not happen to your BP. I "ASSUME" you can provide that.
As out-of-place and low as it may have been, I posted that sarcastic "insult" of mine because up to that point, all of the reasons for offering live were along the lines of "Oh, I just like to give them fresh meat"; seemingly disregarding the good reasons we gave for not offering live. Opinions that are not based on anything substantial reflect stupidity...to me anyway. I'm not going to lie: I hate stupid people and it often triggers emotional responses from me.
It wasn't until after that comment that Synapse and Elevate starting giving (somewhat) justifiable reasons for feeding the way they do.
I guess personal experience comes to play a lot in this. Whether through just dumb luck or some secret on their part, Synapse and Elevate haven't experienced the tragedy of a rodent-inflicted injury on their snakes that Walls and I have...yet. And because of their record so far, they feel what they're doing is fine. I don't agree with that thinking (recalling my motorcycle helmet analogy from earlier) and I still don't see how the advantages of feeding live overshadow the advantages of F/T. All I can hope is that none of their animals eventually suffers from that rationale of theirs.
It wasn't until after that comment that Synapse and Elevate starting giving (somewhat) justifiable reasons for feeding the way they do.
I guess personal experience comes to play a lot in this. Whether through just dumb luck or some secret on their part, Synapse and Elevate haven't experienced the tragedy of a rodent-inflicted injury on their snakes that Walls and I have...yet. And because of their record so far, they feel what they're doing is fine. I don't agree with that thinking (recalling my motorcycle helmet analogy from earlier) and I still don't see how the advantages of feeding live overshadow the advantages of F/T. All I can hope is that none of their animals eventually suffers from that rationale of theirs.
Rodent bites have a lot more to do with keeper error...whether the rodent is too big, the snake isn't warm enough, the snake is freaked out from being placed in an empty box with nothing but itself and the rodent, or whatever else, snakes haven't survived on this planet for millions of years by getting chewed up by rodents.
I would put money on that boa being bitten by a rat that was much too big for it to constrict safely. Keeper error, not snake error.
Ball pythons have been labeled as "picky" eaters because keepers keep them in sub-optimal conditions and do silly unnecessary things like remove them from the safety of their enclosures to be fed.
edit: I haven't been offended in any way so far by any posts or disagreements with my opinion on this (I've heard them all before countless times)...I'm not handing out any insults and expect the same in return, I think that this has been a good discussion so far and hope we can continue in a mature way.
I would put money on that boa being bitten by a rat that was much too big for it to constrict safely. Keeper error, not snake error.
Ball pythons have been labeled as "picky" eaters because keepers keep them in sub-optimal conditions and do silly unnecessary things like remove them from the safety of their enclosures to be fed.
edit: I haven't been offended in any way so far by any posts or disagreements with my opinion on this (I've heard them all before countless times)...I'm not handing out any insults and expect the same in return, I think that this has been a good discussion so far and hope we can continue in a mature way.
hamato_yoshii;785343; said:
Actually, there's been a lot of studies done by CITES on wild populations of ball pythons (especially during the mid-90s when they were trying to determine what affects the export of certain numbers of them would be) and they found many mature individuals (mainly females) that they estimated had to be at least 20 years of age. And with the average life span in captivity being about 30 years of age, I don't think its out of the question to assume that of the ball pythons that aren't subject to predation as juveniles, live a long time into adulthood.
Susan Barnard, Curator
From her book, Reptile Keeper's Handbook (Krieger Publishing Co, Melbourne FL, (Chapter 4, Feeding and Nutritional Disorders, pp. 32, 44).
"A prey animal, such as a rodent, can become lethally aggressive when placed into a reptile's cage. Killing food animals before feeding them to reptiles will prevent potential injuries to the feeding animals (this procedure also applies to venomous snakes). Few reptiles will refuse to eat dead prey. Killing food animals is also advantageous because they can be stockpiled in a freezer and used when food is unavailable. Animals whose diets are only available "in season" may starve if a supply of food is not stored. Contrary to popular belief, freezing prey does not compromise their nutritional value.
"Begin to condition snakes early in life to eat dead food."
From her book, Reptile Keeper's Handbook (Krieger Publishing Co, Melbourne FL, (Chapter 4, Feeding and Nutritional Disorders, pp. 32, 44).
"A prey animal, such as a rodent, can become lethally aggressive when placed into a reptile's cage. Killing food animals before feeding them to reptiles will prevent potential injuries to the feeding animals (this procedure also applies to venomous snakes). Few reptiles will refuse to eat dead prey. Killing food animals is also advantageous because they can be stockpiled in a freezer and used when food is unavailable. Animals whose diets are only available "in season" may starve if a supply of food is not stored. Contrary to popular belief, freezing prey does not compromise their nutritional value.
"Begin to condition snakes early in life to eat dead food."
Sean McKeown, Curator
From his chapter, General Husbandry and Management, in Reptile Medicine and Surgery, (D. Mader, ed., W.B. Saunders Company, 1996, p. 17-18).
"Feeding live adult or subadult rodent prey to snakes is not desirable for a variety of reasons."
From his chapter, General Husbandry and Management, in Reptile Medicine and Surgery, (D. Mader, ed., W.B. Saunders Company, 1996, p. 17-18).
"Feeding live adult or subadult rodent prey to snakes is not desirable for a variety of reasons."
Melissa Kaplan's
Herp Care Collection
Why Feed Killed?
The most common arguments presented for feeding live prey are that "feeding live is more natural for the animal - after all, no one kills their food in the wild" and "I like to give my animal a chance to hunt and kill because it really likes it."
The fact, however, is that captivity is not a natural state. Our reptiles and amphibians are not spending their days searching for food, hiding from predators, searching out favored microhabitats while avoiding aggressive members of their own species, hiding, vulnerable to predation and attack, during their shed periods. Instead they are housed (or should be!) in a comfy enclosure with all of their habitat needs met. If we wanted our animals to enjoy a natural state, we would never have acquired them.
As for needing the "thrill of the kill," that is anthropomorphism at its worst. What our reptiles and amphibians need is a large enough environment outfitted properly to give it enough mental and physical stimulation. For reptiles who are handleable, handling and that opportunity to be out of their enclosure provides the exercise and stimulation that they need, not chasing a rat or mouse around a small rectangular box.
Feeding killed is also safer for the reptile or amphibian. An animal who is not hungry will not eat. It will ignore whatever is going on around it. A prey animal left alone in a tank with a predator, however, is not so relaxed about the whole thing. Mice and chicks are usually terrified, spending their time cowering in a corner or trying to find a place to hide. Rats, however, come from bolder, and hungrier, stock. If left alone long enough with a disinterested predator, they will begin to eat whatever is around: your snake or lizard. Crickets and mealworms are similarly fearless and hungry. Rats have eaten their way into snakes, devouring the skin and flesh off their backs, exposing long stretches of backbone, even quite literally eviscerating them. Even crickets and mealworms will gnaw away at the skin and seek moisture from the eyes of healthy herps when left unattended in an enclosure without proper food and moisture for them. One of the most tragic things a vet or experienced herper sees is an otherwise healthy reptile or amphibian that has to be put down or is already dead from such prey feeding practices.
Live prey may also fight back during a feeding session causing severe injuries. Claws and teeth can bite through the mouth area, puncture eyes, cut through tongue sheaths, and puncture or slice through a coil of the predator's body.
There are those who will argue that it does not happen in the wild. There are also those who will argue that it does happen in the wild and that, being a natural occurrence, should not be avoided in captivity. It does happen in the wild. We don't see much evidence of it as the injured or crippled predator manages to hide away before dying or is itself preyed upon by another predator before dying or is scavenged after dying. I responded to a call where I found a wild gopher snake whose jaw had been fractured and half its tongue bitten off by prey who had successfully fought off a feeding attempt, its grossly swollen and bloodied tongue sheath dangling from the broken, crooked jaw.
Whether it happens or not, however, is immaterial. We are responsible for the health and well-being of our animals in captivity. That means keeping them properly housed, heated, humidified and fed. And that means keeping them safe from avoidable harm.
Herp Care Collection
Why Feed Killed?
The most common arguments presented for feeding live prey are that "feeding live is more natural for the animal - after all, no one kills their food in the wild" and "I like to give my animal a chance to hunt and kill because it really likes it."
The fact, however, is that captivity is not a natural state. Our reptiles and amphibians are not spending their days searching for food, hiding from predators, searching out favored microhabitats while avoiding aggressive members of their own species, hiding, vulnerable to predation and attack, during their shed periods. Instead they are housed (or should be!) in a comfy enclosure with all of their habitat needs met. If we wanted our animals to enjoy a natural state, we would never have acquired them.
As for needing the "thrill of the kill," that is anthropomorphism at its worst. What our reptiles and amphibians need is a large enough environment outfitted properly to give it enough mental and physical stimulation. For reptiles who are handleable, handling and that opportunity to be out of their enclosure provides the exercise and stimulation that they need, not chasing a rat or mouse around a small rectangular box.
Feeding killed is also safer for the reptile or amphibian. An animal who is not hungry will not eat. It will ignore whatever is going on around it. A prey animal left alone in a tank with a predator, however, is not so relaxed about the whole thing. Mice and chicks are usually terrified, spending their time cowering in a corner or trying to find a place to hide. Rats, however, come from bolder, and hungrier, stock. If left alone long enough with a disinterested predator, they will begin to eat whatever is around: your snake or lizard. Crickets and mealworms are similarly fearless and hungry. Rats have eaten their way into snakes, devouring the skin and flesh off their backs, exposing long stretches of backbone, even quite literally eviscerating them. Even crickets and mealworms will gnaw away at the skin and seek moisture from the eyes of healthy herps when left unattended in an enclosure without proper food and moisture for them. One of the most tragic things a vet or experienced herper sees is an otherwise healthy reptile or amphibian that has to be put down or is already dead from such prey feeding practices.
Live prey may also fight back during a feeding session causing severe injuries. Claws and teeth can bite through the mouth area, puncture eyes, cut through tongue sheaths, and puncture or slice through a coil of the predator's body.
There are those who will argue that it does not happen in the wild. There are also those who will argue that it does happen in the wild and that, being a natural occurrence, should not be avoided in captivity. It does happen in the wild. We don't see much evidence of it as the injured or crippled predator manages to hide away before dying or is itself preyed upon by another predator before dying or is scavenged after dying. I responded to a call where I found a wild gopher snake whose jaw had been fractured and half its tongue bitten off by prey who had successfully fought off a feeding attempt, its grossly swollen and bloodied tongue sheath dangling from the broken, crooked jaw.
Whether it happens or not, however, is immaterial. We are responsible for the health and well-being of our animals in captivity. That means keeping them properly housed, heated, humidified and fed. And that means keeping them safe from avoidable harm.
walls;785297; said:Maybe I just dont let things bother me much but I dont see anywhere in this thread where anything is out of control. Yes its a "heated" debate but why would anyone be banned??? Maybe I am missing something??
For me this is a cut and dry discussion. I have had a snake get bitten and then die from an infection. So once again IN MY OPINION feeding pre-killed is SAFER. And FOR ME it is also cheaper and less time consuming.
If someone wants to feed thier pets live I am OK with that. But telling me its just as safe as pre-killed or "better" for the snake in some way is just flat out wrong IN MY OPINION. And if someone thinks otherwise than I would like to see the proof of how it is just as safe and "better" for the snake.
I never said anything was out of control Walls i said it was getting heated, and if you've been around this site for a while with arguments eventually come insults, and then with insults the mods get ban happy.....I completely agree with you on the subject, it is cheaper and a hell of a lot safer to feed prekilled, so no need to turn on me.....after all i could be complaining about how much you all are de-railing my thread, but i'm not i've read every post and i'm truly enjoying reading the debate and learning.........
