My Red Discus - Before & After Carophyll Pink

TonyN

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Dec 3, 2009
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DFW, TX
Hi RD,
Although, I've only only limited experience with CP, a few months, does not mean that it's only been used in the tropical fish industry for a few months. This stuff have been used for many years in SE Asia where many may have done their own private sturdy, just like what I'm doing now, and do not publish it because it's not "accredited". The inclusion rates that I've recommended on my website is from many years of experimenting with the stuff, and by many not just 1 or 2 (not by me off course), and as far as they're concerns it have not shown any adverse effects. However, I'm NOT going to say that it have no long termed effects. Like you said, longer study from an "accredited" institution may prove otherwise.

IMO, This inclusion rate is from commercial breeders, where they need to bring color up quickly (5-10 days) for resale. A lesser inclusion rate will work just as well, just takes a bit longer. My experience with Naturose, with discus, was it's did not worked well for me, it turned my discus orange, which i do do not like, CP give me the red that I'm looking for.

Quote:
They only supplementing with this dosage for a period of 5 - 10 days.
Right, and when that wears off, then it's another 5-10 days, and when that wears off then another 5-10 days, and so on & so on & so on.....

From an economical point of view, IMO it also makes absolutely no sense to spend $30 on 10 grams of CP to spray on 4 lb's of pellet feed, when you can get the results seen in the previous photos posted by spending $50 on 5 lb's of a premium fish food.

You do not have to treat it that often. Depending on condition one keep their fishes in, the most is every 3 months. IME, it have been 2+ months, since the time I've fed my discus with CP, and the color is still great. At this rate, I would not have to treat them again for 4 more months or longer.

Your economic analogy is invalid, You only need to make enough for your fishes to consume in 10 days. For my 4 discus, I've used, no more than, .2g (200mg). With 2 grams package ($9.99) it would last me at least 3 years. I would probably end up throwing 1/2 of it away due to expiration.

Yet you cannot supply a single non-biased 3rd party feed trial from an accredited institution that supports that statement.
You have not provide any non-biased 3rd party proof that it's unsafe, either.
Again, I'm just a hobbyists, I cannot paid for a "non-biased 3rd party study", I don't even think many studies are non-bias at all, big pharmaceutical company paid for their so called "3 rd party" study all the time. Or have 2kg to send to a "non-biased" person, like yourself, to have a study, like Cyanotech Corp.

Tony
 

RD.

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Tony,

Experimenting willy-nilly with a product such as CP does not equate to a study. I don't care how many breeders/hobbyists have used it in SE Asia, or for how long, I seriously doubt that any of them have taken the time, effort, or cost to have random test subjects be examined by a DVM, before, during, or after their little experiments. Andrew Soh has already expressed his opinion as to it retarding the growth of juvenile fish when larger amounts are fed. That alone should send up a red flag. That's an observation that I can accept, but actual necropsies performed by DVM's, with organs etc being examined - I have never seen, or heard of. Just because a fish appears ok on the outside, does not mean it IS okay on the inside. If someone in SE Asia can offer up some data along those lines I would be all ears. (or in this case eyes) Many fish die in hobbyists tanks every day from fatty liver disease, yet the vast majority of the owners of those fish would never know why just by "looking" at their dead fish. Open them up & suddenly things become crystal clear.

You have not provide any non-biased 3rd party proof that it's unsafe, either.
I don't have to, I'm not making bold statements such as you have, and telling people that it will kill their fish, or that it is a totally unsafe product.

You on the other hand are doing just that, making bold statements with no proof or data to back up your claims.

So let's go back & take that comment in context, here's what I posted in full.
...........................................................

As an example, you state the following on your website:

Will feeding more than the recommended dosage or longer period of time harm my fishes?
No, CAROPHYLL® Pink contained natural plant extracts and do not contained hormone that can harm fishes. If feed more than recommended dosage of (200ppm) the color will showed up quicker and redder, any excess, fishes will just excrete as waste through their gills and as feces.
Yet you cannot supply a single non-biased 3rd party feed trial from an accredited institution that supports that statement.

The reality is, neither you, nor your supplier has the slightest clue what type of long term effects may potentially take place in any tropical species of fish when fed CP long term, especially at the inclusion rates that you recommend. You even go so far as to claim that CP contains natural plant extracts. Really?
..........................................................................


According to you, no one has anything to worry about, CP will not harm fish, even if fed more than your recomended dose, and you even go so far as to say that CP is derived from (or contains) natural plant extracts.

Which natural plant extracts would those be, Tony?



If was was stating that CP is going to kill everyones fish, and that it was totally unsafe, THEN I would agree with you, I would need to have some pretty solid data to support such a statement. But I've never said that, and I'm not the one promoting this product & using skewed data (such as the salmon industry data) to support its safety in tropical fish.


IMO, This inclusion rate is from commercial breeders, where they need to bring color up quickly (5-10 days) for resale.
LOL, that pretty much sums this entire discussion up for me. Pump 'em up with color right before you place them up for sale. Perfect! Hopefully when those breeders sell the fish they incude a bag of CP in the deal.
 

TonyN

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Dec 3, 2009
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DFW, TX
In regards to you mentioned of Andrew Soh quoted in his book about CP retarding growth. Here's a link I've found, that say otherwise. I don't know if you considered this accredited non-biased 3rd party study or not.
I've Understood, that the rate on inclusion is difference and the test objects are different.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2095.1998.00067.x/abstract
The effect of adding carotenoids from various sources to feed of juvenile freshwater crayfish Cherax quadricarinatus on pigmentation, growth and survival was examined under laboratory conditions. Juvenile crayfish were fed diets fortified with carotenoids at a level of 100 μg g−1 for a period of either 49 or 55 days. Carotenoid sources were: dried algal cells prepared from Dunaliella salina in which the main carotenoid is β-carotene; a synthetic carotenoid, astaxanthin (Carophyll Pink 8%, manufactured by Hoffman–La Roche) and alfalfa meal. Crayfish receiving feeds fortified with carotenoids exhibited better body colouration than those in the control group, which were fed a diet to which no carotenoids were added. Growth and survival of the crayfish were not affected by the addition of carotenoids to their diet.

Tony
 

TonyN

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Dec 3, 2009
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DFW, TX
According to you, no one has anything to worry about, CP will not harm fish, even if fed more than your recomended dose, and you even go so far as to say that CP is derived from (or contains) natural plant extracts.

Which natural plant extracts would those be, Tony?
Maybe I've used the wrong word "extracts". However, in DSM's brochure, it's mentioned plant-based more than once.

http://www.dsm.com/en_US/downloads/dnp/51640_aqua.pdf
CAROPHYLL Pink 10% CWS has been specially formulated to contain plant based materials
...
It is an innovative product with a plant-based beadlet structure
What plant materials? My guess is only DSM would knows.

Tony
 

RD.

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I see, so now you are saying that the information regarding CP from one of the most highly respected Discus breeders in SA Asia (Andrew Soh) is not to be trusted? Even when he has personally used CP for many years, and this is what he has found from his own experience? After all, it's these types of personal experiences & first hand observations by SE Asia breeders that has been the very foundation of your deeming this product safe for tropical fish. Correct?

The data in the link that you posted certainly doesn't
disprove what Andrew Soh stated, with regards to juvenile Discus & CP.
Not even remotely close.

The so called natural plant extracts in CP, would be corn starch.
Just seeing if you have been paying attention. IMO the wording in the text on your website is more than just a bit confusing/misleading.

BTW - you keep stating that you are "just a hobbyist", when in reality you clearly have a vested interest in this product. You have developed a website for the sales of these products, advertise these products in your sig line, and have posted on other forums doing the same. You are clearly buying these products in bulk with the intention of reselling for profit.
Nothing wrong with that, I have a vested interest in the fish nutrition biz as well, but let's at least call things what they are.


Perhaps my scepticism is partially based on the fact that I am old enough to recall a time when products such as DDT were considered safe, even going so far as to show commercials on TV (in black & white) with spraying taking place along playgrounds with children pretty much playing directly in the over-spray. At that time no one understood the long term effects on the environment, or on human health, and it wasn't until the early 1970's before the EPA clued in & placed a ban on its use in the USA. Even still, companies within the US still manufactured, and exported, hundreds of tons a year until the mid to late 1980's.

In the wild a fish will consume natural color enhancing agents via their diet, be it from shrimp, krill, zooplankton, phytoplankton, etc. Remove those same fish from their natural environment, and remove those natural substances from their diet, and feed them a diet that is completely void of these foodstuffs, and they will most certainly not retain their natural color for 3-4 months, such as they will apparently do when fed CP for 5-10 days. That fact alone alarms me.

Perhaps I'm being overly cautious, or overly sceptical, or I'm just a stubborn old fart, but short of any concrete data to support your claims, I think I'll stick to the old fashioned way of supplying these natural substances to my fish.

Cheers
 

TonyN

Feeder Fish
MFK Member
Dec 3, 2009
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DFW, TX
Cookie*420;4673812; said:
Tony, you seem a little thick in the skull, or just trying to make a buck. Interesting debate, but I still find nothing backing you calling it "safe".
Cookie * 420,
Again, I've no data to support that it's absolutely safe, and that it would not have any long term effects. However, 20 years of use in salmon farming, shrimp industry, and ~10 years of used in the tropical fishes industry (at the inclusion rate that I'm recommending) and no evident have come up, yet, to say that it's unsafe. Minded that Andrew Soh is highly respected in the discus community, however, his statement in his book, IMO, is not concrete. If he have something concrete he would have provided more information/evidents rather than just one line in his book.

There are many medications out there that do not have nearly the same, clean, track record and are being sold for human consumption.

I understand your reservation and skepticism. It's only human nature to reject anything that is deem "unnatural".

Tony
 

mshill90

Feeder Fish
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Nov 4, 2009
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Mechanicsburg, PA
TonyN;4674219; said:
Cookie * 420,
Again, I've no data to support that it's absolutely safe, and that it would not have any long term effects. However, 20 years of use in salmon farming, shrimp industry, and ~10 years of used in the tropical fishes industry (at the inclusion rate that I'm recommending) and no evident have come up, yet, to say that it's unsafe. Minded that Andrew Soh is highly respected in the discus community, however, his statement in his book, IMO, is not concrete. If he have something concrete he would have provided more information/evidents rather than just one line in his book.

There are many medications out there that do not have nearly the same, clean, track record and are being sold for human consumption.

I understand your reservation and skepticism. It's only human nature to reject anything that is deem "unnatural".


Tony
Since when is CP a medication? Medications are to FIX things that are wrong. Like Cancer, Depression etc... And the reason that they don't always work the same with each person is because there are probably literally a million differences per person... genetics play a LARGE part as to how medications react to things.

It's only human nature?! Are you smoking crack? Not to be crude, but what typical guy deems breast implants as something to reject? Or wearing colored contacts, or wearing glasses for that matter? MAJORITY as in 99% of the WORLD is made of unnatural things... internet, tv, fish tank, cars, synthetic wood... the list could go on..

Why do you need to sell this crap, when you can buy the real deal? Think about it this way... if everyone who has discus bought even decent genetic ones, and they bred, the line will continue to stay decent, and possibly over time improve, which means, better quality fish for lesser value because of the abundance.

I really think that you are trying to make a quick buck by selling this, or your wouldn't be pushing so hard with this entire thread. It's not been deemed safe, or unsafe. It's just well.... unnecessary.

Stop being cheap, and just buy quality fish and then people wouldn't get all testy, and pushy when you're making very BOLD statements with little to no concrete evidence.

Seriously, Discus are not that expensive. If you are in the hobby for the fish, you would know that spending money on a good healthy fish is better than feeding cheap fish neon pink food. :screwy:

IMO, this isn't a forum for you.. We love fish, it's what we do.. not the $$
 

RD.

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May 9, 2007
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However, 20 years of use in salmon farming, shrimp industry, and ~10 years of used in the tropical fishes industry (at the inclusion rate that I'm recommending) and no evident have come up, yet, to say that it's unsafe.
There you go with those misleading comments again, Tony.

The FDA approved the use of CP in fish feed used on fish destined for human consumption at the rate of 100 mg/kg.

You on the other hand are recommending that hobbyists feed 2,000 mg/kg.

That does not equate to this product being safe if fed to tropical fish, at any rate, let alone the rate that you recommend.

Apples & oranges.

Farmed fish aren't raised for longevity, they are raised for food.
Tropical fish are not raised for food (I hope) but longevity is very important to most serious aquarists.

Minded that Andrew Soh is highly respected in the discus community, however, his statement in his book, IMO, is not concrete. If he have something concrete he would have provided more information/evidents rather than just one line in his book.
I guess the same could be said about what you have been stating, yes? :)



Also, as stated repeatedly, the fact that it is a synthetic product has no bearing on my opinion. My fishes diet are supplemented with synthetic vitamin C. (L-Ascorby-2-Polyphosphate)
 
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